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Remote startups will win the war for top talent

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Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why non-remote employees are commuting (in anger), remote employees are spending time with their family, exercising, working on their hobbies. Which of those two employee types do you think will have have better work output? I'm have a pretty good idea, but am not totally sure.

I worked in an office for a lot of years and I almost never, ever remember "commuting in anger". I basically did a comp-sci degree on the train to and from work, contributed to opensource software, caught up on work, read books , talked to colleagues, napped etc. It was actually pretty productive alone time for me. Forced quiet time for 3 hours a day. I was young and I had a 1.5 train trip each way to work. I built m…

> I was young and I had a 1.5 train > I built my career further and could afford to live closer to my office > it was still a 30 minute cycle each way > it was a 10 minute ride in a beautiful city

Almost none of these apply to the average American commuter. Public transportation/biking infrastructure is poor to non-existent in most of the US. And the places where it does exist are usually the most expensive. For 95% of American workers, a commute does not mean leisurely spending time on a train unwinding while they read or sleep, or getting outside for a nice bike ride through the city. It means bumper to bumper traffic on the highway for 2 hours every day.

As for the 6am and 9pm meetings, can you not just tell people to not schedule meetings then? My company made it clear that due to our distributed work force, meetings are only scheduled within core hours near the middle of the day so that no one is getting up early or working late.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#372
I would actually love to get some perspective on my own perceptions. If i'm slinging code, remote work sounds awesome. But when i'm slinging ideas, i want to be in person. I want to have the brains in a room around a market board figuring things out. The creative and communicative energy is just totally different.

My problem with the code-slingers who want to be totally remote -- don't you need to have periodic collaborative discussions with your peers? Do you really find those discussions are as good over a computer screen as they were in a room? Over a screen, most people are multi-tasking -- having multiple conversations, doing their laundry, whatever. That's a poor imitation of true collaboration, in my opinion. What am I not considering?

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#373
At first I was all-in for working remote, but after having done it for two years, the question that made me think otherwise was simply:

- Ten years from now, would I be glad that I had spent ~70% of my time at home?

As you can see from all these comments, whether working at the office is good or bad, depends hugely on context. E.g. what type of commute are we talking about? 15 minutes walking to the office or spending 4 hours everyday standing still on the freeway? There simply is no single answer for this.

Working remote certainly has its upside in that it allows one to have more control of the day. Bad storm projected for next morngin? I guess I’ll just work from home. Not having to walk out the door means more predictability. But coming back to the original question, this sort of control might come at the cost of losing some color in your everyday life in the long run. And thats what freaks me out the most: am I purposefully grayscaling my life for the sake of convenience and control?

I’d rather not.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#374
post #141

I've been working 100% remotely for about 6.5 years now. Overall I love it. However, there are very real drawbacks that have taken me awhile to fully realize. For me, the primary one is that it's _way_ too easy for everyone to get deeply frustrated with each other. Social interactions and chit-chat lead to a better understanding of people and a more accurate mental model of what people actually mean when they say som…

I've spent a lot of effort trying to be present in Zoom now that we've gone all remote. I've invested in a decent setup. I connect using ethernet on my work laptop so there aren't any latency concerns. I have a high quality headset so there's no feedback and good quality audio. I have a nice camera and some lights to make sure my face is illuminated. I rely a lot on whiteboarding at work, so I try (and find this to b…

Excalidraw[0] is the best tool I've found for whiteboarding over Zoom. Just enough structure to let you quickly sketch out what you're talking about, but without the rigidity of a Visio or Lucidchart.

0: https://excalidraw.com/

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the thinking that VCs will stop funding remote companies? Because one advantage a fully remote org will have a slightly extended runway not spending money on rent, office furniture, and other costs associated with operating in-person operations. To me, an office sounds like something a tech company should only obtain after a strong and established revenue stream.

The thinking is that VCs will stop funding startups period. In the post dotcom bust startups were exceedingly rare, and what's happening right now is much larger than the dotcom burst.

That doesn't make much sense. Nobody is going to decide that a few percentage points bump in interest rates is going to stop them from pursuing profit entirely.

Also, it's silly to compare current conditions to post-bust conditions: the market at the time of the bust was incredibly immature and people had been throwing money at ridiculous garbage just because someone had a landing page and a marketing team. We've gone through several entire generations of startups at this point. VCs are far more sophisticated than they were back then, and far more people have made in the tech / startup industry.

Millennials and Zoomers are far more hedonistic than their parents and grandparents. They will gladly go into debt to fund their lifestyles rather than cancel that 8th streaming service they haven't watched in 3 months. They're so bad at managing money that we literally have services like Trim to remind them that they're being stupid with their bank accounts.

We're not entering into a recession because the economy is collapsing and value has disappeared. We're entering into a recession because of a myriad of supply chain issues and because people are literally making and spending too much. While I believe that our entire monetary system is a disaster waiting to happen... we're a long way from being in a bad spot in terms of investment.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#376

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model…

Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles? Have you considered that your company is self-selecting for those who flourish in remote, but that those whose personalities differ are self-selecting for working in an office environment? It's OK for there to not be a one size fits all…

I feel the same. I read GP and thought: "Oh, another 'extremist' WFH advocate." This is a never ending battle on HN -- with so little new, interesting input on either sides of the debate. The "all office" vs "all remote" crowd: It is exhasuting. Both are correct and wrong at the same time. Like Realpolitik in geopolitics: For each team, it is all about what works for your team. But please, don't tell me what works for my team / family / personal situation.

The very best teams have highly levels of adapability -- whatever comes we can adapt, but continue to be high functioning!

Personally, I really like WFO. Why? I like the pressure to wake up early, dress well (suit and tie!), ride the metro/subway, and perform at the office. However, I never pressure my teammates to do the same. I tell all new joiners: You can wear hoodie and jeans everyday, but please don't take away my necktie! Yes, I know that I am the cultural equivalent of an office / cultural dinosaur in 2022!

In my team, people that WFH more often have measurably lower rates of collaboration versus those who work-from-office (WFO). To be clear, the most advanced sales teams literally measure everything regarding collaberation or client contact. (I have seen custom built software at multiple companies that try to exactly measure this!) It does not mean that WFH is less productive or less collaborative. Instead, it means that each team is different.

A "WFH zealot" on my team was adamant that their previous boss who commuted by high speed rail twice per week more than 500km away was a "good situation". There is no limit for the zealots (on both sides: office vs home). It could be working from the moon (WFH -- new SpaceX colony!) or everyone sleeps in the office 7 days a week (ramen profitable / office uber-zealot). Both sides are simultaneously correct (with perfect fit team) or wrong (with terrible fit team).

This whole silly "argument" feels like the anti-vaxxer equivalent of WFH vs WFO. I am tired of it.

What is a good reply to this post? Talk about when/where you were wrong / learned something new (!). "Oh, I was WFH zealot, but then I was forced to WFO and was suddenly much higher collab and connected with my teammates." (Or the exact opposite -- "I am tired of annoying sales people asking me to fix their broken mouse!".) Please don't reply to this post if you are the anti-vaxxer equiv of WFH/WFO. You add nothing new to the debate.

Last: This whole debate feels eerily simliar to the mid-2000s argument about (only) "hire old/experienced" vs "hire young/inexperienced". Both sides were correct and wrong at the same time. The same old anti-vaxxer crowd argument again! The ultimate team had energetic people of all ages / genders / experience / ethnicity / religion. Hey... Looks the same in 2022!

The best team I ever worked on had wild variety in experience. All the way from "I-Am-Old-Get-Off-My-Lawn" to "17-year-old-summer-intern". Amazingly, people were open-minded and tolerant. As a result, we worked at a furious pace and team meetings were amazing.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#377
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't they both be normal?

I think it is normal to make friends / acquaintances anywhere as we are all different. I just expressed what I feel about it. Does not mean that "there has to be the only one".

Fair enough. The way you quoted certain terms in the previous comment made it seem to me as a refutation rather than a separate point. Just a poor assumption on my part since I can read the other voice.

I do think that this discussion is often people who disagree not bothering to disagree, which probably explains why I read your comment wrong.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can pay as much as you want but after a certain threshold I'm curious if there is a multiplier a company could pay you personally to convince you to endure the commuting stress and inflexibility of an in-person office? I.e. would you go back to a commute for 1.2x, 1.5x, 2x, or 3x your current salary?

You know what.. at three times the salary, I can rationalize a lot of corporate idiocy. There is indeed a number, but between hour commute and higher prices on everything, WFH is ideal ( and some employers muse they can lower those salaries ). All I can say is, good luck. Bar a heavy economic disaster ( its possible ), it looks the odds favor WFH crowd now.

Thanks, that's useful input.

> some employers muse they can lower those salaries

That seems reasonable given their much larger labor pool of remote workers. They'll probably couch it as paying a premium to attract and retain in-person workers but its the same end-result as lowering salaries for remote workers.

To me the bigger question is not how many developers will be working full remote vs hybrid vs in-person, but what the salary differences will end up being.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#379
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Find an interesting remote job. 2. Sign-up to a local coworking space in Central London and make a habit to go there every day. Try to make friends with people there and go out with them every now and then. Many coworking spaces even try to facilitate community building by organising events, etc. 3. Profit. Socializing doesn't need to happen at work.

This is an avenue i've been considering. In my case it does require enough budget to allow for a somewhat permanent co-working space setup (big monitor, mouse, keyboard etc), but it's an option.

good luck! treat this budget as an investment into your well-being and social life.

Also, keep in mind not all coworkings are made equal. It might take trying a few before you find one that suits you well.

In my experience small, local coworkings are best for building relationships. Big, chain coworkings like WeWork are the worst. Everyone just minds their own business there.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#380
post #366
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure that happens today, in part because it's so painful to 'do the right thing'. I stayed in San Diego for a month last year and didn't pay a single penny of income tax to the city. Meanwhile my home city was paid for my income and I was a lightweight customer during that month. I think the idea would be something along the lines of creating virtual citizens that live in the locality and meet all of the obligations…

>I stayed in San Diego for a month last year and didn't pay a single penny of income tax to the city. States are starting to crack down on income taxes for non-residents working there. Obviously in many cases they have no way of tracking but if you're there on business (and have expenses), Concur for one offers companies an audit service. The rules vary by state but if you spend enough time in a state and pass some t…

New York City is pretty aggressive about this and has been for at least 7-8 years...at least if you work for a bank headquartered there. I had to provide a separate attestation that I did or did not work over a certain amount of time and, if so, had a bunch of extra paperwork to do.

In my case it was a privately funded trip, nobody at my company had any clue where I was beyond the ones I told.

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