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Hertz orders 100k Teslas

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Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll wise up to it when people start requesting it. I'll even pay a premium for a 100% guaranteed reserved charging spot at a hotel. This way I can just gun it and arrive at 1% charge, plug in, sleep, have breakfast and be on my way with a full battery again.

Small hotel owner here. There is no grid capacity near our airport, we actually have a restriction of 15kW limit / building in the area, and we ended up powering each floor from a different building (my family owns the neighbouring houses). We had gov't grants available to build charging stations, and couldn't get them because of the power grid situation.

That's a singularly shitty power grid right there :)

Charging overnight even at 2-3kW is plenty for most people, that's usually enough to get you a good 100-200km away from the hotel and to a fast charger (or your next destination).

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#372
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Electricity prices topping $0.30/kWh in many places, this is no longer true... Unless you also have solar panels at home and want to have the hassles of making sure your EV only charges on sunny days, you're going to be paying rates for electricity close to rates for dinosaur-fuel, especially if you're comparing to a modern 60 mpg gas car.

Which cars are 60 mpg?

Most cars in Europe where fuel is much more expensive, and therefore manufacturers put a lot of effort into energy efficiency.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#373

I was very pessimistic about Tesla and confused by their stock price. But I now believe that they indeed are doing it and that we’re finally at the EV revolution. I’m not an early adopter type and the Teslas don’t excite me at all, but I’m really delighted that the market is evolving. I’m delighted that I was wrong.

The thing to understand about stock price is that it is based on perception and not necessarily on potential. Ultimately it boils down to whether you think someone will be willing to pay a higher price for this at a future point in time more than whether you think the company has potential. Retail investors, and particularly first time investors, in the market have been growing rapidly. These kinds of investors tend…

Not to throw any pebbles in the garden, but if you compare to how religions work (the self-fulfilling prophecy side), I would not be surprised if that's how the humanity will proceed. Semi-religious leaders speaking of hypothetical progress collecting money to do anything they want with them from a bunch of retail investors.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are doing the math on car TCO finally. If nothing goes wrong, the first two-three years are practically free for an EV. Home charging costs pennies and if you're really stingy you can use free public chargers. Then you might need a new set of tires maybe a quick maintenance at the dealership and you're good for a few years again.

With Electricity prices topping $0.30/kWh in many places, this is no longer true... Unless you also have solar panels at home and want to have the hassles of making sure your EV only charges on sunny days, you're going to be paying rates for electricity close to rates for dinosaur-fuel, especially if you're comparing to a modern 60 mpg gas car.

The supermarket 5 minutes from my apartment just opened their chargers at 0.20€/kWh for 22kW charging and 0.25€/kWh for fast charging (50kW+).

Still a hell of a lot cheaper than gas over here (coming up to 2€/litre in some places). Even diesel is over 1.8€/litre.

At 15kWh/100km consumption it'd cost me under 4€ to drive 100km on my EV. My old Prius did around 5l/100km, which would be closer to 10€/100km.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#375
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true. But also, presumably, these companies outsourced their supply chains etc because it was (or seemed) profitable. There is still a disconnect for me. First everyone outsources, apparently successfully for automotive, and that’s great, all these joint ventures between car makers etc. Then Tesl comes along, integrates everything, and poof that’s also good..?

I'm guessing the automotive industry benefited more from outsourcing because they were heavily unionized. Outsourcing parts allowed them to get the parts from sub-contractors that didn't have to pay union wages. Tesla started much later and didn't have this problem.

So is Tesla another labour rights arbitrage at heart? That would make me sad.

It feels to me that even taking the company at face value, this valuation is just silly. And I thought that for years, so clearly as a short-seller I’d be toast. But the more the price levitates, the more unreal it feels.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#376
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't just a very profitable deal for Tesla, it is a strong indicator towards that electric cars are really around to stay and that the electric car market is growing quickly. If it is more profitable for Hertz to buy Teslas than other brand cars, it should be for most car rentals and probably also most other customers. Not too long ago Elon talked about Tesla making up to 20 million cars per year in 2030. That…

> Of course this statement was treated as Elons typical optimism, but deals like this pave the way to that actually coming true. I feel people have really short memory wrt. Elon's optimism. Not everything he promises pans out (autopilot being the prime example), but usually, it does , just slightly later than promised.

Right, though it currently looks that autopilot is about to work out, if you look at the FSD beta releases (check the videos on YouTube). And the Hertz order points to the possibility of the 20M cars/year being not to far off both in volume as in time frame.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#377
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be a bit crazy, but you just mentioned a slate of companies that absolutely have no future at their current scale. Sure this won't happen overnight... But my theory with petroleum is that it has so many HUGE economies of scale built into its production that a demand collapse will send it into a rapid tailspin. A small version of this happened in the Dakotas when the Saudis started dumping oil to get it under…

We are so dependent on fossil fuels that I'm slightly more sceptical. Over 90% of global energy is created with fossil fuels. We often get fooled about the electricity sector which is something like 1/3 renewables. But electricity is only 30% of fossil fuel consumption. Even if the share of electricity increases to 40% because of ev's and we produce 80% with renewables, we still have ~70% that requires fossil fuel pr…

Yeah I'm not a domain expert on decarbonization or anything, but from what I've seen on the industrial manufacturing side of things in the US, electricity prices would have to be consistently very low for the cost of re-outfitting existing natural gas heating systems with electrical ones to make sense without fairly punitive carbon taxes, and even if you pass carbon taxes in first world countries to make it "worth it" to retrofit with electric heating, most of the domestic manufacturing will just go belly up without tariffs--good luck getting developing economies to enforce the environmental standards most of us would like to see on their own, and good luck getting the ruling body politik to think tariffs are a good idea. I ran the number on our facility and moving from natural gas boiler heating to electric would have been iirc something like 8-12x more expensive, even before buying the very expensive heaters, and I'm fairly certain that for higher temp operation(our steam system was low pressure) it would be even more expensive.

There are a couple other stand out problems I see with getting the industrial/manufacturing sector off fossil fuels. First, I don't think that we have the grid infrastructure to replace natural gas with electrification at the same time we do cars[1][2]. From what I understand its something of a problem already for electric car charging, and industrial use of gas for heat (and saying nothing of trying to replace the petrochemical industry, interesting read on all-electric ammonia production [4]) is pretty staggering as well; electric transmission is some substantial multiple less efficient then direct heating with Gas. I think this is kind of the opposite of electric cars which tend to be more efficient than ICE, but again I'm not an expert and am not at all sure that is true of cars, just my impression which seems reasonable intuitively, as turning fuel directly into heat has essentially 100% efficiency while turning fuel into motion can only be some fraction.

Second, super cheap electricity is extremely fungible, so it becomes a prime candidate for Jevon's Paradox[3]. I feel that there would have to be some "unfair" power rates for heating for electricity to supplant natural gas unless we implemented massive carbon taxes, in which case return to my first point about off-shoring.

I can see how it would theoretically make sense to put industry right next to large power generation sources, like dams, solar array/ battery installations, or nuclear power plants(lol), but a lot of these operations aren't exactly trivial to move, and our current climate of Environmental regulation makes moving these sorts of things that much more difficult. Also manufacturing requires a not insignificant amount of logistics/shipping so transplanting them to power generation sites has its own set of drawbacks.

All in all, I try to be a techno-optimist, but seriously worry that humanity's ad-hoc system of organization (that's rife with corruption) will be our downfall in this global climate crisis we've created. So far I can't see a way out of this without a breakthrough in power generation and a breakthrough in carbon capture or some other unforseen-by-me break through. Really I just don't see our current tech stack as being capable of getting us out of this mess. So here's hoping that high-temp super conductors bare fusion fruit, and this gallium catalyzed CO2 splitting is the real deal.

[1]https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...

[2]https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/29/climate/gm-electric-cars-... (has additional good links as well)

[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox (fun fact, I've used duckduckgo for many years now, and this required the rare !g to find without knowing what the paradox was called off the top of my head. my query was: "the cheaper something gets the more it is used", top hit on big G, nowhere to be seen in the DDG results)

[4]https://www.cleantech.com/green-ammonia-potential-as-an-ener...

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla’s stock price is confusing if you compare them to a car company. But they are not just a car company. They are also a car manufacturing supply chain, having brought much of their component production in house. They are also an energy company, both generation and storage, but also distribution, like gas stations. Think Exxon, BP, Chevron, ARCO, etc. They are probably a few other things, but this is the mystery o…

Every car manufacturer is a supply chain and and owns their own component production. Ford owns Motorcraft. General Motors owns AC Delco. Tesla doesn't have nearly the size of the distribution network of any of the oil companies. The fact is Tesla was trading at 1000x historic earnings, and 161x future earnings, or to put it another way, 10x any other car manufacturer, and this this was before this deal. [0] This sim…

As long as Tesla can grow at or around 50% a year all those numbers you are using are useless. They will be halved every year from the current level. Yeah right now its seems crazy, and it is a unbelievably high valuation. But its more a sign of things to come.

The other OEMs are laden with debt, which Tesla doesn't have so any comparison there would be at the EV level which doesn't make Tesla look that out of line considering it is about to overtake in 3-4 years most of the companies it is compared with. Also that debt the other OEMs have, was used to build ICE factories and technologies which are quickly becoming outdated.

If and its a rather big IF I'll grant you that Tesla manages to achieve what they aim for which is 20 million cars in 2030, thats effectively 1/5 market share globally. Add into that the energy storage, charging network, solar roof tiles, AI and FSD.

However any signs of growth weakness or interest rate changes will wreak havoc for sure.

Even if Tesla falters, the other LICE OEMs are destined to fail, maybe 1-2 survives (GM/VW), the cat is out of the bag and what looked like a totally entrenched industry has been blown wide open by Tesla, and loads of other startups are following through.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also reported that model 3 sales in Europe for the month was just shy of 25k which is the first time an EV topped monthly sales. Renault Clio on spot #2 with 18k sold. Interesting considering the price of the tesla….

I think people are doing the math on car TCO finally. If nothing goes wrong, the first two-three years are practically free for an EV. Home charging costs pennies and if you're really stingy you can use free public chargers. Then you might need a new set of tires maybe a quick maintenance at the dealership and you're good for a few years again.

A family friend just got an increase from their electricity provider to 0.44€/kWh due to increased costs of gas and coal. Assuming 18kW/100km (including charging losses) that's 8€/100km. Not very far from gas prices at the moment.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#380

Tesla surges by over $100B on a $4B (revenue) deal, likely at very low margins. Memes galore.

They also reported that model 3 sales in Europe for the month was just shy of 25k which is the first time an EV topped monthly sales. Renault Clio on spot #2 with 18k sold. Interesting considering the price of the tesla….

Check all the months. Tesla usually delivered them all in the same month/quarter as far as I'm aware.

It leads to a misleading number if not averaged over the other months.

> Normally, Tesla would deliver only a handful of cars during the first 2 months of a quarter and then deliver an incredible amount of cars during the last month a quarter.

https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/tesla-sales-norway-surge-stab...

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