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About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

ish.app

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Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#371
post #274
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ease of technical support for your family doesn't merit enslaving iOS users and developers.

Neither Apple’s users, nor developers for iOS are forced to do anything. Comparing buying a phone to being enslaved is quite bizarre.

This is exactly the perspective we disagree over: in my opinion, Apple users and developers are absolutely forced to do something.

There is a thing. They may or may not prefer different ways of handling that thing. Apple makes a choice for them, and prevents them from making their own choice.

Call it what you will, but in my book, lacking the freedom to make your own choices is the definition of slavery.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#372

I will say it again. The one thing Apple will try to defend is the concept of an app/container. I wrote a similar comment supporting their actions with video game streaming platforms the other day[1]. Any app that creates some kind of a wedge into another kind of app/container ecosystem is not going to fly. I do believe this will get solved by having a store within a store model. It just means all the packages/apps t…

Unless you are China/WeChat

I don't think other Chinese companies would get away with it, but WeChat yes. It isn't really a China thing. It's a platform power balance thing. Do you think Apple wants to give WeChat that wedge/leak? It is an obvious special circumstance given the market circumstances. As I said before, I think store within a store is coming it's just not ready yet. You can be sure whatever Apple comes up with will fit the needs of WeChat and they will be coerced into using it.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#373
post #78

This isn’t sustainable. Software developers can’t build on a foundation that is constantly, capriciously shifting. This on top of the App Store's already-onerous restrictions and the fact that it’s the only practical way to get your software on one of the world's largest computing platforms has already engendered a deep antipathy [1] among Apple developers, and there are no signs it’s getting better. Something has to…

They can build on it... developers have been building on it for years and making money doing it. Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. If your app makes money (directly or indirectly), pay Apple whatever portion of your revenue that Apple demands. I also think that's a pretty clear rule. If there's something that should obviously be regulated out of existe…

You just reminded me of the "Airport Manager of Conscious Perceptions" from that Onion news story about Franz Kafka International Airport.

I hear his voice in my head when I read your comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyFH-a-XoQ

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#374
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd still like a good explanation why I can't do what I want with my phone. You don't want do to that? Good, don't. Make it so that I can, if I have to tick a box somewhere hidden in Apple's labyrinthine and undiscoverable Settings app. Of course, we already know the answer why I can't do what I want with my phone, because it isn't my phone, is it, Apple continues to think of it as theirs and they simply grudgingly r…

You can do what you want with your phone. You have a legal right to jailbreak it and hack on it in any way you like.

then why is apple breaking jailbreaks with every new phone?

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to have effective sandboxing, you need to restrict the APIs that a device can call, which means blocking the ability to generate and run arbitrary machine code on-device. Please, no, this is not how security and sandboxing works at all. Otherwise, the moment you have an arbitrary code vulnerability, you'd get full access to everything. The way effective sandboxing works is by giving a process a set of capabilities/…

Wouldn’t you have this as part of a defense in depth strategy? Apple’s public vs. private APIs and similar things seem to indicate that at least part of their security model involves static analysis of binaries and only allowing a set of approved APIs.

Apple's static analysis to detect private API usage is not very clever; you can get around it with some fairly trivial tricks.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But its absolutely not true that this is enforced consistently. My iPhone currently contains three full programming language interpreters from the App Store---one for JavaScript, one for Python, and one for Clojurescript. I know one of those can make arbitrary network requests because I've done it, and I think the other two can as well. So how is that different from iSH? Apple has approved a bunch of apps that can go…

It really isn't. You can definitely download code into Scriptable and Pythonista, although I don't think they have package managers.

Not out-of-the-box, but users have created scripts that bootstrap package managers into those apps similarly to how iSH users have.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But its absolutely not true that this is enforced consistently. My iPhone currently contains three full programming language interpreters from the App Store---one for JavaScript, one for Python, and one for Clojurescript. I know one of those can make arbitrary network requests because I've done it, and I think the other two can as well. So how is that different from iSH? Apple has approved a bunch of apps that can go…

This is a wall I have hit with App Review quite a few times You have to stop viewing the apps from a technical perspective. App Review is _intentionally_ non-technical, as frustrating as that is for us developers. They enforce App Store policy from a non-technical standpoint I produce an app which can download and run code, and was rejected many times through App Review. I was able to point to many other apps which _…

We'd be happy to include your experiences when we talk to Apple about 2.5.2 if you'd like to share them with us. (I work on iSH, so you can either use the email on my profile or any of the other ways to contact the iSH team.)

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#378
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you need alternate stores - buy Android. And when Google decides to stop allowing that, then what? There's a duopoly and history suggests that when one can get away with rent seeking the other will follow. If we continue to allow this behavior now then we guarantee it'll continue on the future. This is exactly what happened with the 30%. Google did it because Apple had set the standard. They didn't do it because…

Can you explain how this is an example of rent seeking? I can see how it is of profit seeking, but how is offering a product, services, and platform rent seeking?

It'd be rent seeking if Apple wasn't making the platform better for developers.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#379
post #317
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty clear reason for passing legislation to force Apple to allow third party stores, and I think it has been explained well in the parent comments: some people believe users should control their devices. There are also pretty clear reasons for not doing so: other people believe Apple should control its devices. Politicians can legislate things. They already get to dictate how parties interact. I'm not su…

This is not an accurate representation of reality. Users simply cannot control their devices. No individual can no matter how skilled. Software complexity moved past that point decades ago. All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Nobody is forced to choose or trust Apple, but many do. Since choices exist for people who want to decide for themselves who they trust to provide software, t…

> All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software.

Right, but when you buy an iPhone Apple says that they are the only people you can trust. The argument is that this isn't necessarily the best scenario.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#380
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason at all for Apple to be forced to do anything. Apple impacts businesses, consumers, engineers - multiple industries - with their bad behavior. Apple has an illegal platform and it must be regulated. They've captured 50% of the United States computing market and illegally inserted themselves as middleman into every transaction, every software install. They punish everyone trying to do business and…

> Apple impacts businesses, consumers, engineers - multiple industries - with their bad behavior Unfortunately the alternative is letting businesses and engineers impact the life of their own customers negatively. Developers had way too much power to screw up users for years, and they did: spying and tracking behind our backs. Mandatory rootkits [1]. Piracy Protection and DRM that did way more than advertised and cau…

A lot of the anti-Apple arguments I see here seem to have an element of ideological fixation. IMO the practicalities of the real world are always more involved than an ideological black/white distinction, and just as you said here there are always tradeoffs on different fronts. Openness instead of a walled garden is nice, but how far can you go with it? If you think about it, every company is essentially a plutocratic organization or even somehow military-like, where most important decisions are made by the few elites at the top and passed down, and people are quite fine with it.

Of course the argument here seems to be that Apple is gradually becoming an almost "public good", while if you're unhappy with a company you're working at, you can switch. But then again if there are better alternatives to Apple, nothing theoretically prevents the users from switching. I have been using Android since forever but this year I'm switching to iPhone. The touted "freedom" simply is not evident in most scenarios during my daily phone usage, and I'm fed up with a lot of downsides of Android (ironically, it's hard to think that being tracked by countless potentially malicious apps offers you more "freedom" than living in Apple's ecosystem), also Google is not known to be exactly friendly to developers either and it can be even more Kafka-esque to appeal a ban, apparently.

To maintain the standards of a system, sometimes the maintainer has to get hard, and this would result in them occasionally cracking down on false positives. Still, it's similar to how a society cannot function without an actual enforcer of rules, which is the police. As long as there is a mechanism/will to redress the false positives, it's much better than a system where there's no control at all. Of course, if you say you're a hardcore libertarian and are fine with living in a society without any policing and would rather protect your own interests yourself, no problem and you can always go with the most liberal phone OS out there. But most societies can't realistically function that way nor do most people wish it that way. The app ecosystem is similar in this sense.

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