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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

371–380 of 568 posts

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#371

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic levels, and even founders' altruistic motivations tend to fade or get drowned out by the basic profit motives of an increasingly large group of shareholders. At that point, it's not a matter of trusting, it's at best a matter of recognizing if the strategic goals of the company aligns with my interests in specific ways. For example Apple has made a strategic choice to double down on privacy, because invading privacy is not core to their business the way it is to Google and Facebook, so this allows them to gain an edge over their rivals. Great, that's something. That doesn't mean I "trust" Apple the way I would a person - it's more akin to how I'd recognize when a wild animal doesn't view humans as prey, so I'm willing to get relatively close to them without protective equipment. I don't trust them in general, I don't expect them to care about me at all, but I trust them to follow their instinct, which is to not attack me unprovoked.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#372
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian who has privacy concerns their government's COVIDSafe app (see https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing ), and hence not installing it, I'm really thankful that Apple and Google are pushing this model of contact tracing. We still don't know if digital contact tracing is effective in practice, but it's still important to try, but we can do this in a way that avoids giving governments with worrying au…

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

Google/Apple developed this particular contact tracing technology such that they don't have any of the data nor any of the control, so it is not the same as the US government having it.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have four arguments as to why google are behaving this way with regards to this data. I’ve no idea which, if any, they operate by: 1. It’s actually crap and they don’t want their advertisers to know that their ads are sold based on crap quality data/don’t want the backlash of doing a poor job helping 2. Most people at google care a lot about privacy (either in the secret kept between you and google sense or the mor…

Re: #1 The quality of their location data is pretty easy to audit personally by looking at ones location history.

I expect google buys data from data brokers and this is counted as sufficiently anonymous to not be included in the location history google shows. But this misses the point because looking at your location history shows you the quality of a tiny fraction of Google’s location data and don’t tell you much about the rest of the data

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#374
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

What? I don't think this is accurate. From what I recall, the US was/is spying on the major tech companies and would regularly demand data and place gag orders on those companies. Neither actions are willful forms of data transfer. The first is actually an eternal game of cat and mouse. NSA finds a leak for some data, Google fixes it, new leak, etc. The second is targeted handover of data, and only affects a few indi…

>Equating these with the US government having full access to everyone's data is misleading. If you think otherwise, please provide more detail.

By everyone you mean "US citizens" because from my understanding non-US citizens are fair game and it it legal to spy on them.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have four arguments as to why google are behaving this way with regards to this data. I’ve no idea which, if any, they operate by: 1. It’s actually crap and they don’t want their advertisers to know that their ads are sold based on crap quality data/don’t want the backlash of doing a poor job helping 2. Most people at google care a lot about privacy (either in the secret kept between you and google sense or the mor…

I work at Google but don't have any visibility into this project, nor do I speak for Google on this. My uninformed guess is that the answer is more precisely: 5. They very much want this project to succeed so that it can save lives. They know privacy concerns are (rightly) an existential threat to the success of the project, so they are trying to address those by drawing this firm line. It's not 1 or 3 because anyone…

Why do people/google suddenly start caring about privacy now?

You can only see the tiny fraction of data that relates to you, and only the data that has been identified to you. This says very little about the quality of the rest of the data google have. Doing the double slit experiment once with a single election will not tell you much about quantum mechanics.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#376

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As a lifelong public servant, welcome to the ungrateful side of life. If you're providing a service to the public with the hopes of their gratitude, you will be sad. Do it for the same reason you change your baby's diaper: you love them and it needs doing. They might take pleasure in pissing on you while you're doing it, but this thing you love will be better off afterward.

Let's not compare apple to a public institution. What apple does is in the interest of the shareholders and nothing else.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#377

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As a lifelong public servant, welcome to the ungrateful side of life. If you're providing a service to the public with the hopes of their gratitude, you will be sad. Do it for the same reason you change your baby's diaper: you love them and it needs doing. They might take pleasure in pissing on you while you're doing it, but this thing you love will be better off afterward.

Apple isnt a public company. Apply lives for profit. Apple is positioning themselves stratergically. Contact tracing is a vector for profit.

If the government doesnt misuse your data, Apple will, by proxy, buy training there AIs on your datas. Sure the AIs will start out "for the purpose of good" but at some point they will be leveraged for the "purpose of profit".

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

Google and Apple are the ones pushing for isolating where this data lives and how it can be used/abused here. They are doing this in an effort to curb far more dangerous data collection on the very same devices in architectures that infer location or send off all data that is gathered on central servers. Your comment boils down to "Gapple is evil because Snowden" and seems to be disconnected from the specific issue a…

> They are doing this in an effort to curb far more dangerous data collection

Don't be naïve. This is not an NGO or an institution. They are doing this so that they and noone else owns the data.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another commenter pointed out, if the app is not using the contact tracing framework developed by Google and Apple, then the app can basically do whatever it wants (mandate continuous location access etc.).

I don't think apps are allowed to do this on Android any more. You can designate that an app can only have location access while the app is open and in use.

and it may prevent the app from functioning properly but the point is that Apple/Google will not allow you to publish an app on their stores which utilises both of location services and contact tracing APIs

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, for sure, that’s a choice users have. (On the iphone too, fwiw). Sadly, outside of tech circles very few people would have the knowledge or even motivation to do this. The attitudes of the populace to online privacy are frighteningly callous.

Since Android 10, the system will prompt you once the app tries to get the locarion in background and you can opt out with one click.

I've been astonished at the number of apps that are grabbing my location in the background. Espescially since I previously considered myself to be quite on top of the permissions I'd granted my apps.
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