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The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

jarednelsen.dev

371–380 of 851 posts

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#371

In my admittedly limited experience, there's one way to avoid such nonsensical interviews - run away from bureaucracy. Seek smaller organizations (startups in particular) and if you're lucky enough to have a minimally cross-disciplinary background, you can seek out niche organizations where you'll interview with technical specialists who'll ask reasonable questions that are actually related to your work and your inte…

What? Startups are the worst at cargo cult interviews, they think they need to copy the big ones when they often don’t.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#372
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well adding the visual element just introduces another source of bias.. and even if we set that aside, depending on the position it may be selecting for an irrelevant skill cover letters are terrible anyway. the signal to noise ratio there must be comical.

what are better recruitment ideas replacing cover letters ? (honest question)

What worked for me, after my boss just put up a stock ad and got hundreds of replies then decided that they couldn't cope and handed the problem to me. First spam all the applicants and say terribly sorry there's been a transition in the team and now I am in charge. Enclose copy of new ad, in email emphasise that I have tier CV and want ~100 words explaining what they understand about the job:

- ask for a very specific thing in the cover letter. In our case, which version of the specific IDE they were familiar with. - specify that we care about relevant skills, and having the legal right to work here. nothing else.

Of the 50-odd responses who survived a 10 seconds each filter (ie, did you answer the question), I skimmed the CVs and picked 10 I liked and 10 more I thought would be ok. I did this via a 5-bucket sort - as I read each email I dragged it into a numbered folder. Then I created folder 1a,1b and put 10 in each. Sure, that's about an hours work but it's easier than doing an online test and trying to make it non-gameable.

Interviews were a five minute chat then we dumped them in front of a computer with our development setup on it, and a series of programming tasks. Starting from "this button. Make it so when the user clicks it a dialog pops up saying 'click'" and going up to "there is a memory leak in this ~100 line command line program. Find it and fix it". They were asked to talk me though what they were doing, and while most problems followed each other from the same based, they started with a "perfect" solution to the previous ones at each step so that we didn't deviate too far.

I was pleasantly surprised at how effective the "brown M&Ms" question was, and how predictive the series of programming tasks was.

https://www.insider.com/van-halen-brown-m-ms-contract-2016-9

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hilarious, but I think you dodged a bullet. Imagine for a minute actually working there.

To be honest I never understood this logic. Clearly a firm's skill at interviewing might diverge from their ability to mentor, innovate, have a great engineering culture and so on? Sure - perhaps it's slightly less likely, but it's not at all obvious that interviewing skill and company excellence are 100% convergent.

This was definitely true at a past job which happened to be a fantastic place to work. The HR recruiting team was well-liked by the executives and run by a founding member of the company (so had a lot of power and autonomy). But they absolutely tormented us with things like not telling us a candidate had canceled until right before the scheduled time (we could find their emails in the recruiting software from hours or days earlier), scheduling individuals for multiple interviews simultaneously because they didn't care about our time so put it on us to find someone else to help, and occasionally forgetting to book a conference room forcing us to scramble and generally look bad.

The only satisfaction we got from the whole situation was reading the furious reviews the candidates would write on glassdoor.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#374

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

Lol that’s amazing, you should write an article on this

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#375
post #78

In my admittedly limited experience, there's one way to avoid such nonsensical interviews - run away from bureaucracy. Seek smaller organizations (startups in particular) and if you're lucky enough to have a minimally cross-disciplinary background, you can seek out niche organizations where you'll interview with technical specialists who'll ask reasonable questions that are actually related to your work and your inte…

I agree on small orgs, but... recommending startups is a bit iffy, IMO. DGMW, startups can be great, but if you're just a good programmer wanting a stable job, then that startup job is not the job for you. However, you could be a huge contributor and positive influence in a small org... and it's possible to gain a lot of life satisfaction that way[0]. Plus, your employer actually knows you and understands the value y…

As the GP says : > The archetypal software engineer is socially disengaged, anti-structure, and highly idealistic.

This kind of person would probably refuse a FAANG / GAFAM job, even if asked for it!

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the need to nitpick your example. > does the candidate want to code it up or understands that they could do: cut | sort| head Piping together commands is undoubtedly programming, just in ancient shell script. So in a sense you're really testing for bash expertise. Which is maybe really relevant to you but I wouldn't say you're really "avoiding" coding by knowing to use those commands together, you just decided…

sqlite answer - excellent, that is exactly what I am looking for, things people did, potential solutions let me understand the candidate's real background - not the buzzwords what is not well received is the judgmental tone, passing judgment about me for things you cannot possibly know, no need for that either, simple questions also irritate some, very important to weed those people out too, I expect you would fail t…

>what is not well received is the judgmental tone, passing judgment about me for things you cannot possibly know

But this is the irony---a job interview is a judgment. Why do you think feelings on this run so high?

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#377
post #279

A few months ago I interviewed with Major CDN Company for a front-end dev position. They sent me a take-home React/NextJS project stub with dependencies and such already defined, and instructions to finish building out the full app. "Perfect!", I thought. No stage pressure, plenty of opportunities for going an extra mile. They encouraged me to get creative and I did; it met all the requirements and then some. I proud…

They definitely did you a favor.

You have demonstrated solid debugging skills and stated your case. That's usually harder to find than someone who can churn out code based on simple and well-defined specs. Because that's the easy part.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#378
post #115

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

Hah! Reminds me of https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 . Cynical answer though — Google does not want people like you. They don't want to hire entrepreneurs or inventors. They want people who can churn out code when given specific instructions, and that is what their interview process optimizes for.

I don’t think there’s any intention to it at all.

Unless one takes extraordinary steps to examine what brings truly brings value, most people interview for clones of themselves. Or worse: their idealized self-image.

Google started off with very mathy people, and highly competitive people, and interviewing this way has always worked for them, so why change?

Some people have done internal studies showing how wildly counterproductive their interview process is, and yet it does not change.

I suspect psychological factors are the main reason why this process persists.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#379

In my admittedly limited experience, there's one way to avoid such nonsensical interviews - run away from bureaucracy. Seek smaller organizations (startups in particular) and if you're lucky enough to have a minimally cross-disciplinary background, you can seek out niche organizations where you'll interview with technical specialists who'll ask reasonable questions that are actually related to your work and your inte…

What? Startups are the worst at cargo cult interviews, they think they need to copy the big ones when they often don’t.

"Startup" and startup are two very different things. If the office has a ping pong table, run the fuck away.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, from this example, management side was unwilling to even invest time in exploring or acknowledging the idea that they might be wrong . I don't know about you but I don't want to work with people who you can't have a reasonable conversation with to get to the bottom of a problem and figure out the issues together. Everyone makes mistakes, sorting them out together and achieving mutual goals is what makes this so…

They might not even have reached the management team... who knows if the recruiter passed this on or not.

Sounds like poor internal communication structure to me then.

If the recruiter is from a third party it's a bit more forgivable (though I have gripes about this approach in general). I'd contact the company directly if I was working through a third party that stonewalled me. It's usually pretty easy to find recruiters public facing profiles to figure out how closely (if at all) they're connected to a given business.

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