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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The Real Class War

#371

Post by anongraddebt »

MithrilTuxedo wrote: post #354
tc wrote: post #321

George Orwell covered this basic point in `1984` (published in 1949): > The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are. The aim of the Middle is to change places with the High. The aim of the Low, when they have an aim -- for it is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of any…

One would assume that with advances in technology such cycles will eventually be broken.

How many times have we said something similar about the promises of technological advancement, and yet the panacea never actualizes?

Re: The Real Class War

#372

Post by e40 »

yibg wrote: post #364
MithrilTuxedo wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One would assume that with advances in technology such cycles will eventually be broken.

Not sure why that'd be a natural assumption. Advances in technology, especially in communication technology could very well hasten the cycles.

Or tip the balances of power between the 3 groups.

It seems in the last 10+ years, social media empires and big tech have done just that. It seems to me, the High turned the Middle and Low against each other.

Re: The Real Class War

#373

Post by buboard »

kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

This assumes that internet radicals are working class , which they are really not. Not even the majority. Isn't it mostly college kids and older boomers?

Re: The Real Class War

#374

Post by sujNansnam »

polytely wrote: post #87
singularity2001 wrote: post #69

What is often forgotten is the hyperdeflation of technology. All your gadges would be worth many millions in pre 2000 dollars. Your car is probably better in many ways than a million dollar car from 1980.

Everything is way more accessible than pre-2000's, but I would argue that the overall quality of the user-experience is probably worse. If you buy a TV today, you get amazing image quality, but you also have to live with the fact that the TV spies on you and that the software it runs on will discontinue in 5 years. (this of course doesn't matter because it's been designed to break before that point). I would gladly t…

If you want a high end old tech TV you can easily get one for free on Craigslist - demand for these is so low you can’t give them away.

Re: The Real Class War

#375

Post by jeegsy »

helen___keller wrote: post #183
xwowsersx wrote: post #171

> But it is precisely for these reasons that the working class is unlikely to be decisive in shaping politics for the foreseeable future. However one defines the working class, it has scarcely any political agency in the current system and no apparent means for acquiring any. At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation o…

While I don't really agree with the author on this point, I think the basis of the claim is implied to be the election of Trump. Trump prevailing in the primary (and the general even) could be seen as a referendum of the working class on establishment politics. And yet, what has changed? Trump hasn't brought back American industry as promised, nor has he made a trillion dollars infrastructure package as promised. He…

> occasional anti establishment candidate doesn't uproot necessary structural change

The anti-establishment is the bare minimum for structural change to happen. The difficulties that Obama and now Trump have faced in bring change (whatever their version of it), actually make the point more strongly that we need even more out of the box thinking in our leadership.

Re: The Real Class War

#376

Post by malandrew »

kazagistar wrote: post #333
tc wrote: post #321

George Orwell covered this basic point in `1984` (published in 1949): > The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are. The aim of the Middle is to change places with the High. The aim of the Low, when they have an aim -- for it is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of any…

So the idea behind this is what? That you shouldn't trust the revolutionaries because they dont have your interests in mind? That its hopeless? This model of the world is just run of the mill statusquoism trying to make people too despondent to tear down hierarchy, not some deep truth. To be honest I dont know if Orwell agreed with the position of the high or not, but the fact people repeat this propaganda of the "hi…

> That you shouldn't trust the revolutionaries because they dont have your interests in mind? That its hopeless?

If you've read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, chronicling his experience in the Spanish Civil War on the side of the socialists, I think that's a reasonable interpretation of his position.

Re: The Real Class War

#377

Post by malandrew »

analyst74 wrote: post #351
kazagistar wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the idea behind this is what? That you shouldn't trust the revolutionaries because they dont have your interests in mind? That its hopeless? This model of the world is just run of the mill statusquoism trying to make people too despondent to tear down hierarchy, not some deep truth. To be honest I dont know if Orwell agreed with the position of the high or not, but the fact people repeat this propaganda of the "hi…

You absolutely shouldn't trust the revolutionists who tell you to die for their causes. Revolutions and chaos in general make most people's lives worse off, hence why they tend to happen when peoples' lives are so bad that they can't possibly get worse than status quo. That doesn't mean revolutions are bad from a system point of view, they serve as reboots for a system plagued with memory leaks.

And there is no guarantee that what replaces what you had previously is any better.

Re: The Real Class War

#378

Post by larnmar »

viburnum wrote: post #258
tvanantwerp wrote: post #159

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

Gay people can get married in America, which was completely unthinkable a generation ago. 100% due to activists, many who risked their lives to make it happen.

The elites have always tolerated homosexuality while the masses have always been creeped out by it. This particular change just looks like another case of the elites getting their way at the expense of the masses.

Re: The Real Class War

#379

Post by malandrew »

tvanantwerp wrote: post #159

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

> I've never seen actual grassroots activism accomplish much, if anything.

> it's that professional ... class that really shapes the government's policy, because they are the ones that show up to do that work every day.

Yup.

"Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole." – Thomas Sowell

Re: The Real Class War

#380

Post by ak217 »

hikarudo wrote: post #106
paulus_magnus2 wrote: post #103

The resentment of big capital is not entirely without a reason. Most money right now is "passively" deployed into pre-existing securities. This means it's used to extract existing value by market cornering / scarcity generation / rent seeking / monopolies / oliglopolies. On the other side there is new value / securities creation. This is what people like Elon Musk are doing. He took circa $50mln of his own money, add…

How exactly does money "passively" deployed into pre-existing securities become "extractive"? If I invest some money in a passive index fund, what does that have to do with market cornering / scarcity generation / etc? What are "non-extractive" ways of investing money, aside from starting new companies?

It's extractive to the extent the economy at large is extractive. Your index fund invests indiscriminately in profit-seeking enterprises proportionately to their size. A lot of profit-making economic activity is dependent on things like cornering a market for trucks through the chicken tax, scarcity generation in housing through restrictive zoning, etc. etc. - government regulations which, for better or for worse, interfere with the "free market".

Want to invest non-extractively? Invest in companies that you truly believe provide value without explicitly engaging in such activities. Most index investing is incompatible with such a thesis. Some index funds try, for example VFTAX.

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