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Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

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Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#371
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of this is not due to goodwill of owners, but unions.

Where I work the non-union staff are not laid off in downturns, only the union staff.

If your company does business in the United States, they're violating the law. https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-law/employers/d...

Section 8(a)(3) of the Act makes it an unfair labor practice for an employer, "by discrimination in regard to hire or tenure of employment or any term or condition of employment[,] to encourage or discourage membership in any labor organization." (An employer that violates Section 8(a)(3) also derivatively violates Section 8(a)(1).) For example, you may not

- Discharge, constructively discharge, suspend, lock out, lay off, fail to recall from layoff, demote, discipline, or take any other adverse action against employees because they support the union or engage in union activities.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#372

After reading this thread, now I get why /r/financialindependence is so full of IT guys like me. We got so roasted during 2001, that we never ever again want to be dependent on our cosy well paying jobs we know not to take for granted. I think FIRE is mostly an insurance for us who has seen those dark days. Like 50% of the other swedes working in IT, I got kicked out of the trade for many years. Moved to China, had a…

what is FIRE?

Financial Independence (Retire Early). ie have a ton of money saved up and invested to live off the interest without working.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#373
post #266
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, lately i'v read "The HP Way: How Bill Hewlett and I Built Our Company" and your story really resonates to what the founders said. Snippet: > We have always considered that we have a responsibility to our employees to plan our work so we can assure job continuity. We do not intend to have a "Hire 'em and fi re 'em" operation. This poses some serious considerations. One is always compelled to fi nd the most effi c…

It's sad. Most companies these days (to include HP) are hire and fire shops. All of them deny it. Want to know why my resume is full of 1-2 year stints? Because when a project is winding down I've learned to start looking for a new job - because it's the safe thing to do. Managers will tell you up until the day you get your layoff notice that your job is safe.

>It's sad. Most companies these days (to include HP) are hire and fire shops. All of them deny it.

This is a good thing for people who want to work at those companies but are not yet employed there. Companies that can fire people easily are more willing to take a chance on someone without a perfect pedigree than those who insist on only hiring those that they are certain they want to work there forever.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly this is also the attitude of many money managers (Warren Buffett, to take the best known example). You'd think at least they would take explicit, timed preventive action. Many (most?) of them don't.

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say about Buffett, but he's sitting on a gigantic pile of cash right now. He knows which way the wind is blowing.

Not sure this is a result of crash planning, or that good deals are hard to find at the top and he won't pony up unless it's a good deal.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#375
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no “grinding leetcode” in the late 90s...

What were SWE interviews and interview prep like back in late 90s/early 00s?

Oh wow, you built a product in 3 months that makes 1mm/year, you know Perl, sql and JavaScript, you’ve built 30 websites, you’ve run 3 successful businesses, you’ve built a framework to build web apps quickly? When can you start?

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#376

For me, the most crazy change was several stories in the early 2000s of running into (literally) used car salespeople who mentioned they were software devs for a while in 1999. They were hustling cars in 1997, hustling code in ‘98 and ‘99, and back to cars in 2001. I spent the crash in the financial industry which was hit in its own way: one fire-sold company office, one closed satellite office with a job transfer to…

Interestingly, I was just on linked in and saw what appeared to be a car advertisement on my feed, and I was annoyed- but then I looked at it more closely and saw it was a guy that had become "head trader" at a financial firm I worked at shortly after I left in the middle of the crisis. He is now a sales manager of a lexus dealership.

I was going to un-link with him, but realized this is a good reminder that you are on top of your game until you aren't, and if you don't keep on the leading edge of things, the world will pass you by.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HP was a different company by 2008. The HP Way had been replaced by the usual corporate abuse - good for the share price, bad for everyone else.

Was it really better for share price? Not short term, but long term. HP was very respected before, not so much latter.

Exactly! Short-term tactics are good for loot-and-plunder leadership, seldom for the business. And the market tends to be disproportionately interested in short term gains, so things can be antagonistically stacked against the business as an organization. After all, short-term is where the best combination of margins and flexibility lie.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this what bankruptcy is for?

Can't file for bankruptcy for taxes due. Nor legal liability (ex. Auto Accident liabilities)

You can’t file for bankruptcy within three years of the tax becoming due, but after that, you can have federal income tax obligations discharged in bankruptcy.

Unrelated to bankruptcy, ou can also file for an offer in compromise, which collapsing option values or an excellent candidate for.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#379
post #73

I graduated from college right amidst the bubble bursting, and it was brutal. Fresh college grads and junior developers were competing with displaced veterans for entry-level positions. ~1 year prior I had been offered $120k/yr to drop out of school and move to Pittsburgh to take a job. I decided to stay in school to finish my degree instead, and by the time I did the bottom of the market had fallen out and I was une…

My experience was very similar- I was working on my resume the morning of 9/11 at the start of my senior year. My friends and I all boasted about how we would refuse to even entertain any offers below 75k prior and several had already secured offers at the end of their summer internships. The bottom fell out of the market, and though I had two summers an intern under my belt, there were hordes of devs with 1-2 years…

It’s funny to hear stories like this, because I didn’t begin my career as a software dev and 37k would have seemed like incredible money to me fresh out of college in ‘06. My first job, I was making 21k and I felt pretty ok about it. I’m making an order of magnitude more now, but I’m grateful for learning how to be happy on a 21k salary. Literally everything over that feels like excess that I could do without if need be. Makes it easy to choose the work that I actually want to do, too.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#380
The biggest thing about history is that we know how it ends. Nothing really captures the uncertainty of the moment. By 2000 everyone knew there was going to be a big correction. Few accurately imagined how big. It was like going to the doctors because you knew something was 'a little off' and finding out that you were going to die in three months. Then talking to all your friends and realizing that everyone you knew had the same disease.

Initially many thought it would be similar to the early 90s recession. I.E. A few layoffs with everyone getting hired back again two years later. It wasn't until 2002 that people realized that springtime wasn't coming back.

It wasn't just places like pets.com that crashed. You had every single non-tech company simultaneously scaling back IT initiatives. At the time there was still a large cohort of management types who considered the Internet more of a fad than a new paradigm. These types took full advantage of the shifting winds to cut deeply into anything tech related. This broad overcorrection did a massive amount of damage to the industry. It's not just that your project was dead, but no one would even be there to bury it.

The impact crater was still visible years later. Remember the big talent shortages during 2008-2012? That's because you no longer had a cohort of mid career professionals to draw from. Only the thin number of people who survived the collapse and a bunch of novices who were just getting started. Everyone was missing that valuable group of mid career 8-12 years of experience etc... Basically a generation of careers strangled. Which is why you'll often see no sympathy for the 'talent shortage' complaint. Five years after cutting everything and leaving people to starve you have the same cohort of managers demanding to know "where are all the people with five years of recent experience, and why don't they work for peanuts like they used to?"

The silver lining is that the bubble bursting shook off the con-artists and pretenders. The dotcom boom was driven mostly by piles of dumb money chasing anyone who could spell the word 'software'. There was a very specific feeling of dilution during the run up. Dealing with companies and teams that contained no competence of any kind. Just lots of people with grand plans. Remember that this was 5+ years before the 'fizz buzz' test became a thing.

During the boom, being a skilled professional felt like you were a hunted animal rather than a valued team member. Everyone had to get in on this 'internet thing' and they would desperately try to latch on. Imagine working in a company of 500, and only two or three actual programmers. Everyone else has 40hrs a week to hassle you for help with whatever their project is while kissing up to management. Think of a tech conference that is entirely shiny salesmen, business types and politics. Tons of fancy titles with no ability to execute. An impenetrable crowd of people trying to suck up time and gain influence. Those types disappeared first.

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