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No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

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Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#371

Post by jfengel »

stronglikedan wrote: post #358
jfengel wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I am now going to bang my head into a wall.

Nothing to do with being American, since you're afforded the luxury to learn other languages for free through public schooling. If anything, bang your head because you chose not to.

The offer is made, but the reason for doing so isn't made clear. I didn't understand it at the time; I availed myself of it in a minimal way. Most don't do that.

Some of that is the accident of geography: it simply wasn't necessary. Today, we are more connected to our Spanish-speaking neighbors, and the value of learning that language is becoming increasingly obvious. I don't know whether the schools are doing a better job of stressing that than they did when I was in school.

I have indeed chosen to learn other languages, several of them. I wish I'd done it in school, at a time when my brain was more open to it. Unfortunately, that was also a time when I didn't know very much and put my priority on other things that ended up making less of a difference in my life.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#372

Post by jacquesm »

duchenne wrote: post #362
jacquesm wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

A quick google search seems to contradict your statement: https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/number-of... Average number of languages spoken: France: 1.8 , Germany: 2.0 , Spain: 1.7 , Portugal: 1.6 , Italy: 1.8 , Greece: 1.8 , Poland: 1.8 , Sweden: 2.5 , Finland: 2.6 , UK: 1.6

That's averages. And 'pretty normal' is not a mathematical thingy it just means: that this isn't rare or noteworthy at all.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#373

Post by kzzzznot »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #264
samfriedman wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any ethical considerations relating to the prospect of use of this bot for cheating in real-money games? Either from your internal team or after public replication?

There are no ethical reasons why a game like poker must exist. In fact, poker gives a false sense of hope to the thousands of gambling addicts that enter casinos. It is a fun game, but there are an unlimited potential number of fun games..

1 ethical reason it ‘must exist’ is that it is a man-made game that some people enjoy without causing harm to themselves or others. Not quite sure what you’re suggesting, but “banning poker” is not going to solve the problem of gambling addiction.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#374

Post by amval »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #301
jacquesm wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

> speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe Northern Europe, maybe. French people for instance tend to suck at foreign languages. We rarely go beyond 3 languages (French, English, then German or Spanish. The last two are often forgotten after school.) I suspect Spain and Italy are similar.

While Italy, France and Spain are pretty much tied in their English proficiency (Spain might be ahead, but not significantly like Portugal), there are 4 official languages in Spain, and several regions where pretty much everyone is bilingual.

I recall something like a 2.2 average.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#375

Post by nishantvyas »

I don't get this... Poker isn't pure mathematical... it has emotions involved (greed, fear, belief, reading others, manipulations (to fool the opponent)... and may be more... and all of these emotions arises differently for different people based on their time, place, their world view, their background and history...)

Are we now saying that a computer can do this all in simulation? if so, it's a great break through in human history.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#376

Post by bostik »

hajile wrote: post #241
noambrown wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bot would make a lot of money playing against average recreational players, but it's absolutely true that if you can exploit bad players' weaknesses, then you can make more money than what the bot would earn. We played 10,000 hands over 12 days in the 5 humans + 1 AI experiment. That's quite a long time, and there's no indication that they even began to uncover any weaknesses in that time period. So I'm f…

There was an interesting IRL poker game a few years ago. The player who was running behind started going all in on every hand without even looking at their hand (with a huge amount of success). Out of curiosity, how does a bot deal with oddities things like this?

This is a solved problem. Open-shoving is a feature of sit-n-gos, so of course people have simulated these and compiled so called "pushbot tables". The parameters are basically pot size and winning probabilities against a random hand.

While this particular bot may not have those programmed in, a more powerful variant eventually will.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#377

Post by loup-vaillant »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #366
loup-vaillant wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe Northern Europe, maybe. French people for instance tend to suck at foreign languages. We rarely go beyond 3 languages (French, English, then German or Spanish. The last two are often forgotten after school.) I suspect Spain and Italy are similar.

Italy 1.8 seems accurate, in my experience most Italians know only Italian, although younger generations are likely to know a bit of English. The surprising thing for me is Germany having 2. Seems unlikely.

> The surprising thing for me is Germany having 2. Seems unlikely.

Germany is big. I've heard that the proficiency in foreign languages tends to decrease as your country gets bigger. Because the bigger the country, the less likely you are to interact with foreign languages. Bigger countries also tend to have foreign works translated (or dubbed) into their own language more often.

So, no, I'm not surprised.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#378

Post by estomagordo »

noambrown wrote: post #326
estomagordo wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you expect the human players to play at the best of their ability when they're not playing for actual real money?

There was real money at stake in this experiment. The pros were guaranteed $0.40 per hand just for participating, but that could increase to $1.60 per hand depending on how well they did. To answer your question, no, I don't think human players would play at their best when not playing for actual money.

Sorry, I meant for way less than they typically play.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#379

Post by JaimeThompson »

stronglikedan wrote: post #358
jfengel wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I am now going to bang my head into a wall.

Nothing to do with being American, since you're afforded the luxury to learn other languages for free through public schooling. If anything, bang your head because you chose not to.

The quality of said language is highly variable which also has an impact. It simply isn't a priority to a lot of schools.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#380

Post by throwamay1241 »

nishantvyas wrote: post #375

I don't get this... Poker isn't pure mathematical... it has emotions involved (greed, fear, belief, reading others, manipulations (to fool the opponent)... and may be more... and all of these emotions arises differently for different people based on their time, place, their world view, their background and history...) Are we now saying that a computer can do this all in simulation? if so, it's a great break through i…

At the nosebleeds, poker hasn't been around those things in a long time.

Poker is about exploitative play against people who base their play off emotions, and unperfect game theory optimal against players who don't base their play off emotions. The more perfect the GTO play is, the higher the winrate against the latter group, but higher stakes games are built around one or more bad players - pros will literally stop playing as soon as the fish busts.

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