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Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

theguardian.com

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Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#371

Post by 24gttghh »

anigbrowl wrote: post #365
24gttghh wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahem: http://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/software-engineering-co... >1.03. Approve software only if they have a well-founded belief that it is safe, meets specifications, passes appropriate tests, and does not diminish quality of life, diminish privacy or harm the environment. The ultimate effect of the work should be to the public good. edit: this version is from 1992 . And I should point out my courses at least h…

Yeah and how many people adhere to this? Anyone can call themselves a software engineer, and many do despite never having been near an ethics course. Calling for mandatory ethics modules as part of a CS course has been an unpopular opinion here for years :-l

I'm not saying an ethics course makes one a software engineer but it seems like a pretty basic thing to remind students of so they are less likely (however small that chance is reduced) to go out into the world to become unethical wall st style sociopaths...

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#372

Post by jjulius »

arkh wrote: post #17

How the fuck could people be surprised? Open a software job board. 50% of offers are by companies trying to optimize some data harvesting and analysis to better target some ads. Ads, the direct child of propaganda. So to everyone working in those kind of companies: you're not better ethically than people working on missile software. I'd say you're worse because you can argue missiles can be used as deterrent.

>How the fuck could people be surprised?

Really? You expect every user to understand the extent of FB's reach into their personal information? You expect every user to understand the extent of how companies obtain that data, whether through purchases or covert harvesting? You expect every user to then understand the myriad of ways their data can be used?

We work in tech, but we're quick to forget that most users at best have a simple understanding of, "I mean, they have some of my data, I guess some of the ads match some things I've searched for on Google before." Joe Schmo never reads a ToS, and we can't expect people not involved in this industry to not be surprised when something like this happens.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#373

Post by orthecreedence »

swyx wrote: post #103
jypepin wrote: post #52

I've been thinking more and more recently of deleting my facebook profile. 1. I barely add stuff on it 2. 99% of my news feed is irrelevant and I really don't care (there maybe 1 post/day from a friend that is interesting to me) 3. Starting to be more and more concerned about all this data But I'm scared for multiple reasons: 1. connections needed from a lot of friends, family etc. that I would not keep contact with…

you dont have to delete it, you can just not be an MAU

Yeah exactly. My Facebook is pretty much read-only at this point, except for a few "likes" to show support for friends or if I get invited to a personal event or something.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#374

Post by Chaebixi »

24gttghh wrote: post #243
na85 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this enforced? What is software development as a field doing to regulate itself and ensure members follow this guide?

I think ethical guidelines by definition are not enforced per se. They're just that, guidelines. However, as mentioned by GP there are boards of ethics at universities and medical/engineering organizations and such that might be able to dole out a modicum of justice. For instance, not following those guidelines would conceivably end one's membership of the ACM, and many companies have their own ethical guidelines (I…

> I think ethical guidelines by definition are not enforced per se. They're just that, guidelines. However, as mentioned by GP there are boards of ethics at universities and medical/engineering organizations and such that might be able to dole out a modicum of justice.

Might be more than a modicum. If a lawyer or a doctor violates medical ethics, they could get their licenses revoked and be unable to practice their profession legally.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#375

Post by 24gttghh »

anigbrowl wrote: post #366
24gttghh wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional ethics aside, how about plain old personal ethics? Do programmers have a higher incidence of unethical behavior in general than the rest of the population? I agree with you that it seems like there could be a more rigorous professional standard for enforcing ethics in coding/CS, but I like playing devil's advocate.

No idea, but a lot of developers and other tech people suffer from hubris, believing that since their cognitive skills make them effective programmers, they are in turn equally insightful in other domains because all thought depends on logic. The problem is that it's very easy (and socially acceptable, even desirable) to build elaborate towers of logic on an unexamined premise.

TBH making the ethical choice may not even be the logical one. That's why it helps to have some education on the topic, as it inevitably involves making the less 'obvious' choice.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#376

Post by closeparen »

tremon wrote: post #348
cyphar wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A much better example would be GDPR, which comes into force EU-wide in about two months.

Actually, the regulation itself already is in force, and has been since the day it was ratified. There's just a moratorium on enforcement in the first two years of this EU directive, so that business (and society) has time to adjust to the new reality. The distinction may be very subtle, but it's important to know that following the 25th of May, businesses can no longer claim to be "in the process" of implementing it…

American businesses did not need to prepare until Safe Harbor fell through much more recently.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#377

Post by jjulius »

bbarn wrote: post #152

Attention everyone's smart friend or family member: Now is not the time to scream "DUH!" or "I told you so!" to people who in the past have not grasped just what they were agreeing to. Now is the time to help your less tech-savvy friends understand the impact their data has in aggregate (like swaying elections!), and how they have been used by this system. Take advantage of all this bad press and help people you care…

Thank you!

I'm going to be using this thread as a perfect example when people think I'm crazy for saying that SV often exists in its own bubble. The disconnect here, and the failure of so many people to realize something so obvious, is appalling.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#378

Post by checkyoursudo »

ams6110 wrote: post #43

> Asked what kind of control Facebook had over the data given to outside developers, he replied: “Zero. Absolutely none. Once the data left Facebook servers there was not any control, and there was no insight into what was going on.” Um, well yeah. This is the case any time you give data to a third party. They now have a copy, and you can't control what they do with it.

Well, NDAs/CDAs/licensing agreements/etc can make disclosure to non-authorized 3rd parties very painful for your customers/partners/etc to contravene your requirements for what they do with data, intellectual property, customer lists, etc.

This doesn't stop external attacks, of course, but it can reduce internal risks.

Facebook could have had more than zero control, if it had wanted.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#379

Post by checkyoursudo »

d_theorist wrote: post #113
ams6110 wrote: post #43

> Asked what kind of control Facebook had over the data given to outside developers, he replied: “Zero. Absolutely none. Once the data left Facebook servers there was not any control, and there was no insight into what was going on.” Um, well yeah. This is the case any time you give data to a third party. They now have a copy, and you can't control what they do with it.

Exactly. What kind of controls could there possibly be? Even doing an audit wouldn't necessarily reveal anything. If somebody has data that they want to hide I'm not sure how much can really be done to force them to reveal it.

The controls are agreements that make getting caught doing the unauthorized act painful enough that it might be enough to deter the act in the first place.

If the price is high enough, bad actors will be willing to breach NDAs/CDAs/licensing agreements/etc, but at least then you can be seen as having done more than zero.

Might have been prudent here.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#380

Post by ifm »

jimmy1 wrote: post #20
scottmf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me guess. It’s a globalist media conspiracy to take down Trump?

No but in the grand scheme of things, things like the Yemen Civil War that has been ongoing since 2015 has gotten less attention in our media than a single Donald Trump tweet. For lack of a better word: sad!

There is a concept called "News Values" which explains this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_values

Anything Donald Trump says is more relevant to the west than Yemen.

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