Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine • Hacker News Board

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#111

Post by mollusc » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

What kind of data are we talking about here?

I'm sure there are all kinds of metrics and analytics available but I'm interested:

  What are the "rawest" forms of user interaction that Facebook makes available to these companies?

I'm not in the business of using this data and neither I suspect are most of the Guardian readership so it would be nice to see this elucidated.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#112

Post by tmalsburg2 » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

deltron3030 wrote: post #106

tmalsburg2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just your perspective. I live in the Germany where we have very strong data protection laws. Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years?

Data protection laws are so strong in Germany that they let registration offices sell your data if you don't explicitly opt out. Most people don't even know whats going on and that they have to opt out to avoid that. Or German credit scoring institutions, who are allowed collect data about you even if you don't have any mutual agreement with them.

I agree with you that not everything is perfect in Germany with respect to data protection. Not even close. However, our data protection laws are uncontroversially stronger than elsewhere (specifically compared to the US), and I'm almost certain that the courts will find that Facebook violated them.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#113

Post by d_theorist » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #43

> Asked what kind of control Facebook had over the data given to outside developers, he replied: “Zero. Absolutely none. Once the data left Facebook servers there was not any control, and there was no insight into what was going on.” Um, well yeah. This is the case any time you give data to a third party. They now have a copy, and you can't control what they do with it.

Exactly. What kind of controls could there possibly be?

Even doing an audit wouldn't necessarily reveal anything. If somebody has data that they want to hide I'm not sure how much can really be done to force them to reveal it.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#114

Post by cryptoz » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #104

Does anyone else have the wild speculation that Rupert Murdoch is opening a bottle of champagne today? The interest in FB and privacy, while gratifying, also seems focused through a particularly yellow lens. People on HN have also pointed out that it’s very likely that CA’a analytical prowess may well be overstated as part of submarine marketing efforts. I suppose many people are just surprised that this is taking of…

There is new fuel. Did you miss the video of the CEO of Cambridge Analytica bragging about how his company stole 200 elections around the world by lying and cheating and deceiving the public? With illegal methods abound?

Lots of new fuel.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#115

Post by ams6110 » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #61

1337biz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Just media's desperate hunger for any story that paints Trump in a bad light. The recent video evidence on Cambridge Analytica shows that they were at least shady in their operations. But their approach to targeting voters and scraping Facebook userdata would have been described as brilliant data wizzardry if it were done for the other side.

... or not http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/magazine/the-obama-campaig...

... the campaign literally knew every single wavering voter in the country that it needed to persuade to vote for Obama, by name, address, race, sex and income.

...the digital-analytics team, led by Rayid Ghani, a 35-year-old research scientist from Accenture Labs, developed an idea: Why not try sifting through self-described supporters’ Facebook pages in search of friends who might be on the campaign’s list of the most persuadable voters? Then the campaign could ask the self-identified supporters to bring their undecided friends along.

...They started with a list that grew to a million people who had signed into the campaign Web site through Facebook. When people opted to do so, they were met with a prompt asking to grant the campaign permission to scan their Facebook friends lists, their photos and other personal information.

So, they used Facebook data, including "Friends" lists and personal information that those "Friends" had never directly consented to providing to the campaign.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#116

Post by mziel » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

IAmEveryone wrote: post #62

CptMauli wrote: post #14

tell me again why you think the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) is a bad idea?

I was actually surprised by the generally positive reaction the GDPR got in recent threads here on HN. I guess the suspicion of data hoarding overcame conspiracy theories about government regulation or EU protectionism. BUT it’s important to note that GDPR would probably not have had an effect on the specific situation with Cambridge Analytica. CA is obviously toast if not by law then by the attention alone. Facebook…

Regarding "they got the users’ permission initially" this is true for the users that signed up for it, not anybody in their social graph. GDPR treats data about a user as data belonging to this user. Those people have definitely not consented to having their data mined for this use case.

Next (as I understand) the consent was for research purposes, not for the CA targeting. So under GDPR Cambridge Analytica could be fined 4% of global revenue or €20M - whichever is HIGHER [1]

[1] https://www.gdpreu.org/compliance/fines-and-penalties/

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#117

Post by hobofan » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

tmalsburg2 wrote: post #29

meuk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is extremely naive to think that Facebook does not use all the data they get about you. Then again, most people are very naive about this kind of everyday technology.

That's just your perspective. I live in the Germany where we have very strong data protection laws. Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years?

> Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years?

In Germany where data-leaks (which are a symptom of insufficient data protection) at telecommunication providers seem to happen on the regular, with no (reported) punishment as a result, yes I think that is a bit naive.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#118

Post by faizshah » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #95

faizshah wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real point is that companies like facebook and equifax have such large caches of personal data and have no legal obligation to protect it. This is a point most people outside of tech don't understand. You might not even be a user of facebook but these companies still have data on you that is highly personal and invasive. An academic who has done some great work on this is Evgeny Morozov. Highly recommend his book…

The point of my comment is that we should not compare Facebook to Equifax. The latter may have been lax in protecting that data, but the millions of records exposed last year were taken without their consent. Facebook is literally inviting anyone who can sign up for a developer account to harvest their — sorry, our — data at scale.

Right and I'm saying that the broader point is it's legal for these companies, Facebook and Equifax being two of the biggest, to have massive caches of highly invasive personal data and have 0 legal obligation to protect it (they can do anything they want with it). How invasive is it for a company like weatherbug to be selling your location data to the highest bidder simply because you want to check the weather on your phone?

The massive industry that has been built around advertising and personal data trading needs to be regulated.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#119

Post by Feniks » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

relyio wrote: post #36

freyir wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so the quote [2004] isn't out of context: Zuckerberg: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Friend]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuckerberg: People just submitted it. Zuckerberg: I don't know why. Zuckerberg: They "trust me" Zuckerberg: Dumb fucks

I'm sure you can do a better job at illustrating your point than ressucitating a +10y old quote from Zuck, 19 at the time. Teenagers and college students say a lot of condescending, dumb, immature stuff in group discussions. It's not news and no evidence at all.

The internet never forgets. You should know that Mark.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#120

Post by mstade » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

From the article:

> He said one Facebook executive advised him against looking too deeply at how the data was being used, warning him: “Do you really want to see what you’ll find?” Parakilas said he interpreted the comment to mean that “Facebook was in a stronger legal position if it didn’t know about the abuse that was happening”.

If this is true – would this constitute willful blindness, and is that not illegal?