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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#371
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which, in the case of most of the people who currently hold our wealth, turns out to be not very much at all. Are you surprised?

Given that about a third of the country would identify themselves as progressives, it's hard to see if they gave of their own free will, there wouldn't be plenty of help to the disadvantaged. But I rarely (never?) see any rhetoric in DNC politics about party members donating of their own free will to anything other than the Democratic party.

Virtue doesn't scale. Hence taxes for public good stuff because otherwise only the town with a generous Moneybags would have roads or a fire service (and the town with a racist Moneybags would only have a fire service in the white quarter). It's also hard to coordinate - see disaster response.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chinese poverty is different from American poverty because we weren't worried about starving." Mentions a mass starvation event in China only a generation before which probably killed the equivalent of 10% of the US population at the time. You might want to think about that a bit more.

Famines were sadly very common in China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines_in_China People often comment on the 1958 famine as some singular event, but it actually was the 6th and last in the 20th century.

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me? Because yes, I'm aware of that. That is why I am so confused by OP seeming to say "in China we don't have to worry about starvation even when we're poor".

It's just so far from true I don't understand why they are getting upvoted (and me downvoted).

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was homeless for nearly 6 years. I got off the street last September. I am still quite poor. In fact, my bank account currently has zero in it and I don't get paid again until the 1st. I fairly frequently give my opinions on HN about poverty, homelessness, housing, women's issues and the negative impact being female has on my earned income. I try to be judicious and not do it too often. Testifying from firsthand ex…

Thank you for sharing your views on poverty. While HN is primarily about programming / tech, there is room for talk about society, etc. I don't agree with your points about being rate limited / banned, all views are valued here if they're inherently non-inflamatory. Edit: Your Karma given your account is only 3 days old is quite contradicting of your views of HN

FWIW, I've been on the site a long time, and have seen parent commenter['s original account] get flamed (and presumably, nope out of those threads) for offering up her (inherently non-inflammatory) opinions / experiences.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#374
post #223
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

Something to consider: On HN a few weeks back, I read someone's comment that some poor people are poor because they own cheap cars that cost a fortune in repairs because they're always breaking down, preventing them from saving up for a better one that won't need repaired so often, which would allow them to save and get ahead. Maybe that's not always the kind of decision-making that keeps you poor after all.

On the other hand (at least where I live) expensive cars means expensive repairs and maintainance.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from the UK and I'm currently travelling the world for a few months. I have been shocked by how different American attitudes to poverty are to European ones. We may not be very good at actually helping people in poverty, but most people accept that poor people are in need of help.

I agree. Was in SF recently and the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and homelessness makes me extremely uncomfortable. I know we have homelessness in the UK but this is just a whole different scale in the US

What are you talking about?

Have you never been to London? There are homeless literally everywhere, and London is one of the wealthiest cities in the world. The money in London is much, much older as well, so if anyone should have it "sorted" it should be London.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, but I'm not sure, that at her income level, the Earned Income Tax Credit will let her get a net refund from the federal government? And Texas doesn't tax income. Savings have to come from the biggest choices in your life. You've already assumed a bunch of poor choices in your model of this hypothetical person. You didn't mention your city, but I found $400-500 2 bedroom apartments on a quick Craigslist searc…

Maybe don't choose to have kids when you're making $9/hour or have a chaotic domestic life? Most children aren't actually planned. They occur because mother nature has spent millions of years perfecting the art of tricking people into liking sex. Or, as I sometimes say, our genes are like virii: They don't care how miserable they make you in their quest to reproduce themselves. Coincidentally, genes and viruses are b…

Is there any number of mistakes one can make for which we shouldn't be taking from others to support them?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution The statement that they should probably need to be cared for in a mental institution isn't true. That some or several may need to be cared for is true, yes, but the probability of that need is less well know. Schizophrenia and other schizophrenia-related disorders can often 'mellow out' on their ow…

To be clear, we're discussing homeless people with mental issues, and not people who aren't homeless. The homeless have less access to resources than a non-homeless person with family and friends. > It is important to give someone a stable and loving and validating environment for them to be able to recover. There are several kinds of people who, while they talk to themselves, really just have their symptoms exacerba…

A mental institution is not always a good starting point, especially if they are committed involuntarily. It can actually make things worse as the experience of being committed involuntarily is often traumatic to the individual. Inpatient treatment is not always loving or validating, especially in environments where the inpatient treatment is for poor or homeless individuals. Homeless shelters aren’t always equipped for individuals suffering from schizophrenia, but homeless shelters are not really the loving and validating spaces someone who is mentally ill may need anyways. I know there are apparently programs that House the mentally ill in small apartments or with willing caretaker families That are paid for it.

I’m not saying “you are wrong and I have the answers”, merely that thmakes perception that anyone who talks to themselves needs inpatient and medication may not be necessarily true. They could just need some time in a safe place, while inpatient treatment can actually not be safe and incredibly traumatic.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#378
post #3

This is not the first time this article has come up, and as usual I'll give my 2c. What qualifies me to talk about this issue? I was raised in the UK on income support, single mother, social housing, low income city etc; Now the situation has changed somewhat in the UK; back then in the UK it was possible to get by without going into debt if you were smart about things and I believe this no longer to be the case, but…

she will treat her time as unlimited in finding similar quality goods for less money It is interesting you say this. I have a friend who struggles to get by. Single mom, two kids, a father who does the absolute bare minimum to provide support to his kids, and she is unemployed. She does get support from the state (rent assistance, energy assistance, SNAP), but it is barely enough to squeak by and what little money is…

It's tricky though, if you work, marginal benefit from an extra unit of work is quite high.

If you're unemployed and on benefits, it tends to be zero and could even be negative, until you reach a full workweek and/or something above minimum wage.

For example, I know people who receive about $1k a month and don't work. If they worked 20 hours, they'd lose their entire $1k assistance and earn about $650 (at $7.5 minimum wage). If they work 40 hours, they earn about $1300, which ends up slightly above $1k after-tax. They effectively earn the same but now have full-time employment and need to pay someone to take care of the kids. Financially, she's better off saving $100 a month with a 15 hour discount-seeking occupation and taking care of her kids.

It really depends on the welfare system how all of this works, but there's this idea of the benefits/welfare cliff:

http://www.learnliberty.org/blog/the-welfare-cliff-and-why-m...

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jul/20/benefits-cliff...

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#379

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

I feel ya. My dad was a Boilermaker. There were good years and some really bad years during the "boom" time of the 1980s! He worked out of town a lot. Phrases like "six tens" or "seven tens" meant how many days per week of work and the hours. He could get time and half on Saturday and double time on Sunday. He'd work like that for 3-4 months, then get laid off and our family would coast on what he earned plus unemployment for awhile after. We were never homeless or living out of a car, though. We had a crappy house, and probably no one thought I would ever amount to anything. Growing up there was sometimes fun, not like suburbia at all. It made me a man, not like these cuckold twats who are scared of their own shadows. I learned how to fix things and get by on limited resources and it definitely made me eager for a better career and better life, something which I worked very hard to obtain.

The saddest thing of all is that my dad was a great carpenter and fabricator and should have been building houses in the 1980s, a business he had already worked in and knew how to do. At some point he become obsessed with that union pension and couldn't think about anything else. So while a lot of people were getting rich in the '80s, our family was just scraping by. He got that pension, though. But he almost got us killed trying to stay in that union.

Anyone who thinks unions are happy fun organizations don't know anything about unions and what they do to their members--it's just another power structure with the regular people acting as raw meat. The Boilermakers tried their level best to force members out before they could reach retirement age and collect their pensions. They were horrible to women and minorities, too. Imagine a bunch of bikers, just the trash of the world, running the show and you have a pretty good picture in your head of that union.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#380
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of society can't be brought out of poverty. Here's an example: If we motivated everyone to get a college education, we would have people flipping burgers who are college educated making min wage and living in poverty while struggling to put food on the table.

We're not going to have humans flipping burgers in a few years. A lot of these low-wage, low-skill jobs are finally on the brink of being automated. There will be new opportunities to replace them, as there always are. I'm pretty optimistic about the future of the economy - we have a huge number of skill-demanding fields that are growing, and many of them are facing real difficulty, which is exactly what creates dema…

But no matter how you slice it, pay is a function of supply and demand. Nothing more, nothing less. Burger flipping is low-wage because everyone is willing to do it, and people will undercut each other to secure that they get the job over someone else. The changing economy may make all jobs more difficult, but there will still be jobs that the masses gravitate to, and those jobs will remain low-wage as a result.
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