Be Kind • Hacker News Board

Re: Be Kind

#361

Post by Vaskivo » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:23 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #70

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this is also incredibly exhausting. Most peoples' reactions to things are arbitrary at best and constant worrying about how they will take something is just way too much BS to put into my day. I bought pretty deeply into this philosophy once and it just made me neurotic and quiet at a time of my life where those things very much hurt me. I think being selectively kind makes a lot more sense. I'm kind to c…

> Most peoples' reactions to things are arbitrary at best "Reaction I do not understand" is not the same thing as "reaction that is arbitrary." Frequently a decision that appears to make no sense starts to do so when you put yourself in the shoes of the person who made it. Their experiences in life have been different than yours (guaranteed!), so there will be no shortage of cases where you look at something and thin…

> I just fired back something along the lines of "you're quite a sperglord. > Would you be comfortable with that response? Would it feel pleasant, or even neutral? Or would it feel like a personal attack -- something that would make you feel an impulse to lash out back at me?

Just as I don't care about your feelings, I also don't care that you thing I am a sperglord. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I agree that we must be nice (smiling, saying "thank you", being polite, etc). I see it as a social convention, a sort of rule like driving in the right side of the road and following the traffic signs. It makes society work smoothly and we, as social beings, are hardwired to react positively to it. Now being kind... That just assumes an emotial investement in the other person, which I simply don't have with 90% of the people I interact daily.

To conclude, I'll respond to the OP's article. It's not the author's fault. His co-workers don't want to work with him because he wasn't nice, besides him being more than capable for the job. IMO it shows how unprofessional they are.

Re: Be Kind

#362

Post by michaelvkpdx » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:39 PM UTC

Good post, but since learning how to be kind isn't on Google's list of things you need to know before becoming an engineer, it's not an important skill. Right, HN?

Re: Be Kind

#363

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:13 PM UTC

npizzolato wrote: post #142

gnaritas wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, and cool story; however, what they're paid doesn't matter, it's a red herring. It's their JOB to deal with people and and it's not my job as a shopper to validate the emotions of the counter worker or my co-workers. Ring up my stuff, take my money, and let me leave. You're chastising him for his "attitude"; what attitude? He's correct and he didn't display any attitude other than simple honesty.

GP's attitude is the same attitude you have when you claim "it's their JOB to deal with people" and when you equate being nice to "[validating] the emotions of the counter worker". Sure, their job is to deal with shitty people with a smile, but it's also your job (as a nice, respectable member of society) to be a person who is pleasant to deal with.

> Sure, their job is to deal with shitty people with a smile

There is so much projection here I'm not even sure where to start.

Lets say I'm working with retail worker who has been trained to be as difficult as possible to stop my RMA attempt for something I bought that was broken. I can see things from her point of view and understand her paycheck comes from her financial masters who want her to deny my RMA, but that infringes on my return rights. Now I express this as clearly as I can. Guess what, now I'm an "asshole" because $big_co wants to be able to casually rip people off.

I pretty much got into a yelling match about a serious engine fault on my wife's warrantied car a few years ago. Its only after I was particularly nasty did they relent and do the work. Why does the guy making $12 an hour behind the counter want to deny me my entitled service? Because Jeep told him to limit this kind of very expensive work.

This is so much more complex than you make it. Niceness and kindness do not resolve the fundamental conflict we are having. If anything, it allows the kind person to be taken advantage of. If I wasn't at the dealer with my wife they would have steamrolled her the same way other mechanics have steamrolled her.

The world is a nasty place and how we handle it is situation dependent. Want me to be nice to you? Treat me with some goddamn respect and don't try to rip me off. Because if you don't, you'll deal with a lot of "assholes." "Assholes" who are just working schmucks trying to get through the day without being ripped off.

I think the "kind" people of HN need to stop calling everyone who disagrees with them or have different motivators "assholes." Disagreement, argument, and negotiation are fundamentals in life. Retail staff need to learn to handle that. Its a huge entitlement to be this snotty retail person who hates all his customers. The lady who wants to return the broken food processor isn't a "bitch" because she got you off your freemium game for a minute and she's not a "mindless breeder" because she fed her crying baby on your counter. Or "stuck up" because she had to answer the pediatricians call on her iphone while you were processing the return.

Re: Be Kind

#364

Post by tptacek » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:13 PM UTC

solve wrote: post #307

dang wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The HN community moderation always seemed to be based on a very superficial rules - don't swear, don't mention banned keywords X Y or Z. Never have they seemed to seriously consider the impact that words have on other people Of course there's no rule against swearing. This whole description is so remote from everything we try to do that I'm at a loss to know what else to say.

Certain very strong community norms have formed here, whether you realize it, or whether it was intentional or not. Sorry, I meant "rule" just as something that is somehow enforced, empirically. Probably "rule" is completely the wrong word, as empirical actions can often be the opposite of the written rules.

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=fuck&sort=byDate&prefix&page=0...

Re: Be Kind

#365

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:23 PM UTC

Vaskivo wrote: post #361

smacktoward wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most peoples' reactions to things are arbitrary at best "Reaction I do not understand" is not the same thing as "reaction that is arbitrary." Frequently a decision that appears to make no sense starts to do so when you put yourself in the shoes of the person who made it. Their experiences in life have been different than yours (guaranteed!), so there will be no shortage of cases where you look at something and thin…

> I just fired back something along the lines of "you're quite a sperglord. > Would you be comfortable with that response? Would it feel pleasant, or even neutral? Or would it feel like a personal attack -- something that would make you feel an impulse to lash out back at me? Just as I don't care about your feelings, I also don't care that you thing I am a sperglord. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I agr…

> IMO it shows how unprofessional they are.

This a million times. For lack of a better term, I find a lot of managers refuse to work with anyone but a "Uncle Tom" geek who will just say yes to everything and smile politely and never, ever correct bad ideas or wrongful assumptions. This leads to bad implementations, impossible requirements, unrealistic deadlines, bullshitting, and other issues people have to deal with.

If you can't work with the guy who occasionally says, "Whoa this is a bad practice for reasons x, y, and z," then that says a lot about how broken that culture is and not a lot about that person.

Re: Be Kind

#366

Post by solve » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:25 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #364

solve wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain very strong community norms have formed here, whether you realize it, or whether it was intentional or not. Sorry, I meant "rule" just as something that is somehow enforced, empirically. Probably "rule" is completely the wrong word, as empirical actions can often be the opposite of the written rules.

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=fuck&sort=byDate&prefix&page=0...

I'm talking relative, you're showing absolute. Oh, I see I edited that out of my previous comment.

Previously, I said to try an experiment using multiple accounts where you post comments with a swear word and slightly censored swearing, versus just posting uncensored swearing and nothing else different. You'll quickly see the relative difference in the community's reaction.

Re: Be Kind

#367

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:30 PM UTC

Dewie3 wrote: post #180

nostrademons wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is - most peoples' reactions to things aren't really arbitrary. There are some outliers, and a good deal of individual variation, but by and large most human emotions follow pretty consistent patterns. It can be hard to see them (particularly when you're young and haven't had a lot of practice interacting with people), but the more you get out and make socially awkward mistakes, the more you can form a ment…

> (particularly when you're young and haven't had a lot of practice interacting with people) What's with the potshots at younger people that I keep seeing on HN? Things like undermining their experiences, their abilities, or their viewpoints. "Pff, I used to think like you, but now I know better"; "I did the same thing, but then I realized that I was being a moron"; "Let me guess, you haven't yet? Then your opinion i…

Welcome to the world of the self-styled "kind" person. You'll find, more often than not, that they see themselves as wizened masters and can't stand young people because young people occasionally have the gall to say how it is, and that interferes with the elaborate dance we call office politics and general self-serving ass-kissing.

Just because you're good at office politics doesn't mean you're a kind person. It just means you're good at working people over emotionally and catering to them for your own personal gain.

Re: Be Kind

#368

Post by morpheous » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:14 PM UTC

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".

Something unfortunately, we all have to keep reminding ourselves off (Yes, I know it's difficult to remember that when dealing with a jerk!).

Re: Be Kind

#369

Post by realrocker » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:22 PM UTC

borski wrote: post #324

realrocker wrote: post #291

Notice how it was OK for him to be mean while Facebook was growing up it's infrastructure. Being right unfortunately is a necessary evil for the first wave in any project. In the nascent stages a project often needs firm almost machine like guidance. As the project matures the sense of stability trickles down organically to it's members. Some make the transition well while others dont. Often the best of our champions…

I disagree. You can absolutely be a powerful leader with a powerful vision without being mean or being, for lack of a better term, an asshole. That doesn't mean you acquiesce or agree with everything everyone else says, it just means you lead by example and with a keen understanding of how what you say and do affects those around you, rather than ignoring that. It's similar to taking medication to treat the causes of…

I think being always right in this context means being less open to consensus and taking up more responsibility of execution. This could be very crucial in a fight or flight situation. Most of the time this is a very natural response to adverse situations. Like I said such a response has a very short shelf life. But being persistently in the same state long after the crunch time has passed is definitely not ok.

Re: Be Kind

#370

Post by tptacek » Wed, May 13, 2015, 3:47 PM UTC

solve wrote: post #366

tptacek wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=fuck&sort=byDate&prefix&page=0...

I'm talking relative, you're showing absolute. Oh, I see I edited that out of my previous comment. Previously, I said to try an experiment using multiple accounts where you post comments with a swear word and slightly censored swearing, versus just posting uncensored swearing and nothing else different. You'll quickly see the relative difference in the community's reaction.

I fucking swear all the time here and don't give a shit how often I do it.

You'll only get voted down for it when the swearing makes it harder to read your comment, or conveys an emotional urgency unwarranted by the thread. For instance: "Fuck you" is unlikely to be well-received in any thread.