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Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

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Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#361

Post by nradov »

ryzvonusef wrote: post #342
class3shock wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The purpose of a college degree is NOT a job" Check the marketing literature for any college and you will find that is not true. The only people doing degrees for knowledge and prestige are the filthy rich and while they may make up a significant percentage of students at the top 5 schools, they make up a tiny percentage of all college students. The last point is where I end up aswell though and I think no matter ho…

Perhaps I should have written it a bit more clearer, but in my mind I was comparing degrees with certifications. I feel studies/degrees that have an associated certification (possibly legally mandated) linked to it should have a different loan profile as compared to open-ended degrees. Whether you are going to Trade school to become a Plumber, or Med school to become a Doctor; in both cases there is the study part (t…

I think you might be a little confused about how the practice of medicine works. State medical boards license physicians. Earning a license usually requires an MD/DO degree, passing the USMLE exam, and completing some amount of post-graduate training (residency). Once you're licensed you can legally perform pretty much any medical procedure regardless of whether it's in your specialty or not. There may be separate contractual restrictions on scope of practice imposed by insurance or employment agreements. Some physicians also choose to seek certification from private medical boards such as the American Board of Medical Specialties; this indicates that they take their job seriously but it isn't required.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#362

Post by WillAdams »

ndriscoll wrote: post #352
quacked wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit this leans into pedantry, but I think it's important not to conflate "amount of education received" with "amount of knowledge possessed". In the US our people are more educated than they've ever been, but I wouldn't say they're more knowledgeable than ever. I completely agree that the more knowledgeable a society is the better off it is, but if the education industry is allowed to prop itself up with the wide…

To that point, how many university educated American adults have actually read, say, Locke? It's been freely and easily accessible for decades, e.g.: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7370 How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution?

Those texts were a standard part of grade school social studies when I was young, and my children read all in the course of a typical public education long before graduating.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#363

Post by senordevnyc »

ashton314 wrote: post #24
EPWN3D wrote: post #5

Holy shit this is a great idea. I get the complaints about the arts, but colleges have enjoyed essentially unlimited patience for larding up their programs with extra fees, bullshit credit requirements, and more, for decades. I don't personally think that efficiency should be the primary concern of colleges, but it should be a concern, and it just plain hasn't been for ages. And that indulgence has been cloaked in sp…

> "You can't complain about being require to take a 100-level history course because our job is to turn out renaissance scholars who can debate philosophy at cocktail parties before going to work doing something that has absolutely nothing to do with that." > All the while, those additional credit hours cost students a shitload of money and debt and take focus away from their actual fields of study. This is a straw-m…

And that indulgence has been cloaked in specious, ivory-tower claims about producing well-rounded students

I suspect your comment is exactly what they’re talking about. I actually agree with your claim, but with limits! And yet the proponents of your position always seem to want a blank check.

How much exactly should the taxpayers pay to ensure that little Timmy goes to college and gets “an appreciation for what makes life worth living”, and why that amount? And how do we know if it’s working or not?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#364

Post by aleph_minus_one »

ndriscoll wrote: post #352
quacked wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit this leans into pedantry, but I think it's important not to conflate "amount of education received" with "amount of knowledge possessed". In the US our people are more educated than they've ever been, but I wouldn't say they're more knowledgeable than ever. I completely agree that the more knowledgeable a society is the better off it is, but if the education industry is allowed to prop itself up with the wide…

To that point, how many university educated American adults have actually read, say, Locke? It's been freely and easily accessible for decades, e.g.: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7370 How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution?

> How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution?

To give a counterpoint:

C. P. Snow. The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures (overview)

> https://web.archive.org/web/20170508085255/https://www.rbkc....

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#365

Post by nec4b »

ashton314 wrote: post #24
EPWN3D wrote: post #5

Holy shit this is a great idea. I get the complaints about the arts, but colleges have enjoyed essentially unlimited patience for larding up their programs with extra fees, bullshit credit requirements, and more, for decades. I don't personally think that efficiency should be the primary concern of colleges, but it should be a concern, and it just plain hasn't been for ages. And that indulgence has been cloaked in sp…

> "You can't complain about being require to take a 100-level history course because our job is to turn out renaissance scholars who can debate philosophy at cocktail parties before going to work doing something that has absolutely nothing to do with that." > All the while, those additional credit hours cost students a shitload of money and debt and take focus away from their actual fields of study. This is a straw-m…

Today we have the highest percentage of people with an university degree compared to any other time in the history. Do you think democracy today is healthier than it was 30 years ago?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#366

Post by ryzvonusef »

lionkor wrote: post #213
ryzvonusef wrote: post #140

The purpose of a college degree is NOT a job... but the purpose of a college LOAN is 100% a job, and it's very important to differentiate between the two. The whole point of the loan is to buy time; you don't want to wait for when you have savings to purchase the degree, you want to do it now . If you are not doing it for the job, then why the loan, what's the rush? If knowledge and prestige is all that matters, then…

This is such a shitty American take (or any of the countries that somehow decide the USA is a good model to follow), it's kind of baffling that this is a popular opinion and explains a lot of the social issues (or near lack of social system) you guys have. You know that technically, people are allowed to have fun and not strive to be a billionaire, right? Its everyones right to pick a path they want, and enjoy, and i…

I'm not an american, my profile clearly states I'm from the 3rd world.

My father grew up dirt poor, and a basic associate degree (gotten via his saving from a factory job plus a partial scholarship he won) changed his entire trajectory from being a random labourer to an white collar office worker with enough funds to educate his own kids, especially his daughters.

My father and my siblings helped fund my education, a privilege I'm very cognizant of, and I'm very jealous of countries with free education.

But as someone living in a country with a very poor economy and an even poorer tax base, I also have very realistic expectations in terms of what tax money purchases and what reasonable expectations one should have.

I desperately want an expansion in the education base of my country, but also realise the current tax payer base has limit on how much they can pay to purchase this expansion.

And this fact also extrapolates to rich countries, they may have more money but at the end of the day the math is the same, there is a limit to how much they wish to indulge.

In fact I'm currently applying for a chance to win a PhD abroad, which would clearly be funded by foreigner tax payers. I would be at the whims of their largesse to get paid to study, and if I don't win, it's clearly because they do not wish to expand this indulgence to me, a bitter fact I must accept with grace and move on.

I may cry and moan about it, but one has to be realistic about these things.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#367

Post by 3eb7988a1663 »

clcaev wrote: post #233
3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also unclear how it works for the PhD pipeline. If you roll straight from bachelor's to a doctorate program - you have abysmal earnings for the next 5-6 years of your life.

PhD programs are generally not funded with loans. Professional schools are.

The question at hand is about undergraduate. The student's pre-PhD education likely did have loans. If you go straight from bachelors + loans to a multi-year PhD program, the student appears completely destitute in the stats. Even if they are making long-term investments in their/societies future.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#368

Post by nradov »

ozim wrote: post #356
xyzelement wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

// The purpose of a college degree is NOT a job I think we are past the age where the folks who went to higher education were scholars in pursuit of some higher truth and a broad elevation of themselves. The percentage of people who care about that is very low. As college became "a universal must." Nearly 40 percent of US adults have a bachelor's degree or higher, and obviously 40% of any population aren't inherently…

Really not fun part is that loads of office jobs can be done with high school education level where companies require a degree. I guess it is because there are not enough office jobs and not enough masters/bachelors level jobs so we are all at rat race.

Right, economists describe this as a signaling mechanism. Most regular office jobs don't require skills beyond the high school level. But a college degree signals to employers that the candidate has some discipline and ability to complete tasks. That allows employers to cut down the candidate pool to a manageable size and somewhat reduce the risk of a bad hire. When labor demand is high, employers are quick to eliminate college degree requirements in order to fill critical roles.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#370

Post by theahura »

tbrownaw wrote: post #48
theahura wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whats the goal of government education subsidies a more educated populace is a public and civic good on its own terms. Public funding for education is maybe partially for economic returns, but is mostly because education is a necessary part of a functioning democracy and a necessary part of living a good fulfilling life

So have community things where people give free lectures at the local library or whatever.

Yes we should also do this
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