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Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

mullvad.net

361–370 of 561 posts

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#361

It's absolutely a slippery slope - but most parents know how this is a very real thing as well. There's no controversy in having drugs, guns, alcohol, porn and other things 'behind the counter' - the intellectual debate over freedom of information is clouded by ideology. Definitely the 'slippery slope' debate is worth having, but that's way more relevant than the 'should 10-year-olds be able to do whatever' (aka all…

At least half of the people in this thread survived growing up with access to social without age verification. And I'm pretty sure we've all had an encounter with some creep in some random chat room too. We talked about these things at school and at home. Don't share things with people you don't know etc. Idk if it's illegal to tell kids what to do these days. But when I grew up, we were occasionally also told to get…

>At least half of the people in this thread survived growing up with access to social without age verification.

I was like 8 - 10 years old, I wandered into the "Adults Only" chat room on Microsoft Networks (Oh sweet, I thought, they have a small pen to keep the boring adults in, better check on them) and said "Hi everyone my name is X and I am Y years old" and everyone was nice to me and said hello. I got bored and left.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#362
post #352

When should children be given a smartphone? The answer is whenever you think your child is ready to view porn.

Ah the smartphone, the only device with which children could possibly view porn.

I remember our famous pornless desktop computers at LAN parties in high school.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#363
Honestly, I'm kind of glad this is happening. Online is a bottomless well of libertarians and anarchists and Blueskiers and QAnons. It was always a neckbeard paradise.

It's not just kids it's bad for. Too many people don't have the agency or social/emotional insight to take care of themselves.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is there are much better ways to enforce this - like just setting up proper parental controls on a device. Kids can’t buy their own phone. So parents can always enforce stuff at a hardware level if they set it up properly. It would be much better to just mandate that phones set up with a kid profile cannot access social media.

Many parents don’t have the technical aptitude to set the controls up properly. I am a software engineer and I find it challenging to keep up with the nuances of parental control setup and how to adjust it as kids get older. Content is also imperfectly tagged and smart kids can easily find loopholes in most controls. Having a centralized ID validation system wouldn’t be an ideal solution but having something baked in…

That’s what I mean by adding legislation to make it automatic.

If it’s a kids device, then it should just block social media as required by the law. I agree that right now it’s difficult to set up - but this is a choice from Apple and Google. Just mandate sensible defaults.

A hardware block is much more effective than anything else that can be faked.

Just have the phone ask ‘is this a phone for a child’ and if you select ‘yes’ then it’s done.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is there are much better ways to enforce this - like just setting up proper parental controls on a device. Kids can’t buy their own phone. So parents can always enforce stuff at a hardware level if they set it up properly. It would be much better to just mandate that phones set up with a kid profile cannot access social media.

This is not how any other thing that is banned for children is enforced. It makes no sense. The person selling the age gated item needs to take lawful measures to ensure they arent selling it to a minor. Their parents have nothing to do with it. Your solution would be that if a 14 year old walks into a liquor store and doesnt have a note from their parents saying that they arent allowed to drink alcohol, then the sto…

The proposed solution though is that all adults going into the store have to provide their full name and address and have it recorded by the store to buy alcohol - or any other +18 product they want to buy. These things are not equal.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#366
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, forcing everyone to verify their age is a terrible thing. That's not the same thing as keeping kids away from potentially harmful websites or people. That is positive, but it's awfully weird to enforce it by doing this terrible thing that hurts the open Internet when almost every single kid on the Internet is using a device and Internet connection provided by their guardian. Seems like we could figure something o…

Idk why people are so obsessed with this issue. Having to verify your age to access adult content seems completely reasonable. If you go into a grocery store and you bought a carrot you dont have to show age verification. if you also buy a beer you do. Why is everyone so opposed to the internet working this way?

1. Because it isn't what you are saying it is.

You are suggesting it's simply a matter of adults verifying their ages to access adult content. But it isn't! We're being asked to either scan our faces or provide our government IDs, to access basic online interactivity we already have, on the likes of Discord and Playstation Network, in an effort that is rolling out slowly worldwide. No need for porn or sex at all. These things aren't even required by governments yet. Companies are so eager, they're jumping ahead of schedule.

But would I scan my face to be able to watch porn? Of course not, that's insane. This isn't real life where someone can take a look and go "sure he looks 18" and do no real verification at all. This is the Internet. I'm not going to send a live stream of my face to some company, and by the way we have some real true five star companies stepping up to the plate to provide verification services, and have it literally be associated with my intention to download porn. Firstly, why would I want the site operators to even have any more information about me than necessary? Aren't sex stores awkward enough as it is? Secondly, it's the Internet, as soon as that information leaves my computer "encrypted in transit" I may as well treat it as potentially compromised already.

(Though just to be clear, real life is getting spookier too. With Flock cameras popping up everywhere, we can celebrate the death of privacy IRL while we celebrate it online, too! I am aware that certain countries killed privacy much earlier than others, no need to point it out.)

The long and short of it is that people will (and largely already have) just stop browsing porn sites when invasive "age" (often actually government ID) verification is required, which I reckon is the primary intent here. It seems to dovetail nicely with the other obvious PR campaigns against adult content, porn and sex work in the past decade. They've worked quite hard to try to make people forget "the internet is for porn" era.

What's crazier is there was Less age verification than what is being proposed right now back when people phoned in to order a VHS using your credit card. Remember when credit cards were a godsend for the adult industry? The funny thing is that now, you're lucky if you can use your credit card at all for porn, thanks to the anti porn movement that happens to coalesce suspiciously closely to this movement. And in some cases, it seems that merely providing a credit card is no longer seen as sufficient evidence of adulthood. True, you could just steal your parent's credit card... Just like you could 30 years ago. Or just like how you can get a fake ID. Does that mean we should treat everyone trying to buy adult content as if they may have stolen their parents credit card by default?

2. Because I am an adult.

Most of us are. Almost 80% of us are over the age of 18, at least going by U.S. demographics.

And, we're under 18 for less than around 22% of our lives.

The Internet is not some international daycare program. It is an interconnected network of computers. The connections are managed by adults. It's true that there's always workarounds like free Wi-Fi hotspots, but by and large to be online is to be connected to an Internet plan managed by an adult. That means we already should be able to prevent children from having unfettered access to harmful content with basically no modifications to how the internet itself works.

We've had the ability to do this for almost as long as the Internet existed, and Windows 2000 shipped with a fairly comprehensive system using PICS rules from third parties like RSACi. This system didn't require adults to monitor everything their children did 24/7, and it didn't require adults to constantly scan their face or provide their government ID to sketchy third parties to access chat functionality.

Nobody used it of course, because parents didn't actually give a shit in that era. I'd know, I grew up and had plenty of access to adult content long before turning 18. I am not suggesting this is necessarily ideal, but it also isn't this weird cataclysmic issue that it suddenly became literally like a year ago or so. The internet has worked this way since its inception and somehow only just now is everyone in a panicked frenzy. Now I hate to be dismissive, but that's a load of USDA Grade-A Horse Shit.

So I am wholly against kneecapping the concept of unfettered private communication on the internet because we can't get the parents of 20% of people to do their job for the first 20% of said people's lives.

--

This whole thing stinks rank to me. I get that big tech companies and social media platforms have not given parents very good tools to manage what their kids can see and do on the Internet, but everyone acts as if this is just Machiavellian evil as they twirl their mustaches and laugh. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe that they knowingly make money off of providing inappropriate content to children. The only problem is that a lot of those children's parents knew that too and simply didn't care. And now, instead of just finally making parental control work, something we've certainly had the technology to do since the 90s, we're going to institute mandatory ID laws for all unfettered communication. Hurray. Blast confetti in the street for this victory against evil.

But to me I look at this "activism" and debate in favor of online ID laws and all I can see are anti-abortion protestors at my local clinic.

(I wrote this as if I am an avid porn consumer, because writing it any other way felt cowardly. But that said, I am not. My true passion is Internet privacy, and if I have to go to bat for Internet porn to help that cause it is no problem for me.)

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#367
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again American capitalism ruins everything for everyone.

Without American capitalism you wouldn't have computers, the Internet, smartphones, AI, electric cars and countless other things. That, and the Costco hot dogs mentioned in another reply.

"Without American capitalism you wouldn't have computers, the internet, ..."

In fact, the internet was born out of the American military, i.e., government, and American universities, not "American capitalism"

The first time I used this internet, there were rules against using it for commerce

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#368
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is there are much better ways to enforce this - like just setting up proper parental controls on a device. Kids can’t buy their own phone. So parents can always enforce stuff at a hardware level if they set it up properly. It would be much better to just mandate that phones set up with a kid profile cannot access social media.

The problem isn't an individual kids phone. It's their peers devices, or other ways they can explore the internet that isn't under their guardians control. This is a systemic issue that requires systemic approach. I am not making any claims about the qualities of currently discussed systemic solutions, but I do want to point out that the 'parents can just' argument is missing the mark.

This assumes that it will actually solve the problem anyway. Kids just get a fake account or a VPN anyway.

Addiction is the worst part and that is only going to happen on your own device.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#369
post #352

When should children be given a smartphone? The answer is whenever you think your child is ready to view porn.

Ah the smartphone, the only device with which children could possibly view porn. I remember our famous pornless desktop computers at LAN parties in high school.

[flagged]

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#370

It's absolutely a slippery slope - but most parents know how this is a very real thing as well. There's no controversy in having drugs, guns, alcohol, porn and other things 'behind the counter' - the intellectual debate over freedom of information is clouded by ideology. Definitely the 'slippery slope' debate is worth having, but that's way more relevant than the 'should 10-year-olds be able to do whatever' (aka all…

The point is there are much better ways to enforce this - like just setting up proper parental controls on a device. Kids can’t buy their own phone. So parents can always enforce stuff at a hardware level if they set it up properly. It would be much better to just mandate that phones set up with a kid profile cannot access social media.

I am curious if you know how to enforce this on a general purpose computer.
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