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Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

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Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#361

Post by eclipxe »

ixwt wrote: post #295
runako wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wouldn't have to ban it, they could just alter the protocol to make it impossible. iMessage is designed to only work on devices manufactured by a single company. All of those devices have secure cryptographic elements built into them. It's not a stretch to think Apple could lock down iMessage under the guise of security.

The only way I could see this happening is if they have all of the public keys of the secure cryptographic elements in a database of all Apple devices ever created. Because otherwise, it would just be trivial to emulate a "secure cryptographic element" if it's just a public/private key. They aren't running a client by Apple. A glance at other posts seems they are using Apple code, but that would just be a matter of r…

Of course they have all of the public keys of the secure cryptographic elements of all Apple devices (that run iMessage) ever created. Why wouldn't they?

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#364

Post by jotux »

afavour wrote: post #324
chipgap98 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw an article on the topic where the reporter spoke with Beeper's CEO, Eric Migicovsky. He seems to believe that blocking Beeper might cause problems for legitimate Apple user's. Obviously that outcome is something he wants, but I still think its interesting. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/5/23987817/beeper-mini-imes...

That would make sense: because Apple have deeply coupled iMessage to the OS they can’t simply roll out a new version of the app with protocol changes that would block Beeper, they’d have to release entire OS updates. No matter the method it would be a scorched earth approach. I suspect the number of people actually using Beeper will be far below a rounding error for Apple.

I'm not that familiar with ios apps, can they not push out updates to individual apps?

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#365

Post by willseth »

entropicdrifter wrote: post #301
danaris wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your link—hell, even the URL slug and headline—make it clear that this is something Google is claiming to the EU, not something the EU itself is claiming. Yes, it's possible that the EU will rule that iMessage needs to fall under these rules, too, but citing a major competitor (who's even more under the gun for the same stuff themselves) making the argument that Apple should be restricted is, shall we say, not super…

>who's even more under the gun for the same stuff themselves Are they, though? Google allows alternative app stores on Android, they already implement an interoperable, open standard in their primary texting app (RCS), they allow alternative browsers on the Play store itself, and they don't block interoperability with other platforms the way Apple does. That's not to say they're not under the gun, but what they're un…

> they already implement an interoperable, open standard in their primary texting app (RCS)

Yes, but Apple has announced they will do the same thing. That is not the same thing as interop with the actual iMessage protocol. Similarly, Google Messages does not allow interop with its encryption and newly announced sticker/effects, which remain proprietary to the Google Messages app.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#366

Post by freedomben »

filmgirlcw wrote: post #357
freedomben wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah interesting, so Beeper's days may be numbered by when Apple drops support for older devices. But if they can grow quick enough then they'll have enough users that Apple can't quietly nail them and stuff their body into a dumpster.

Perhaps. They didn't start including the SE with Macs until the first TouchBar Mac in 2016. So there are many millions of non-SE devices in use right now. Of course, Apple could still decide to unilaterally drop support for iMessage on older devices, but doing that risks pissing off and probably losing for life tens of millions of users to prevent, let's be realistic, several hundred thousand users (this is a paid ap…

If it realistically stayed with just several hundred thousand users, I would agree.

My suspicion though is that there will now be a rush of apps doing imessage on android or windows etc, and probably also spam on iMessage will go up which might stoke the fire a bit.

I guess we'll see what happens!

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#367

Post by lxgr »

hedgehog wrote: post #354
chipgap98 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw an article on the topic where the reporter spoke with Beeper's CEO, Eric Migicovsky. He seems to believe that blocking Beeper might cause problems for legitimate Apple user's. Obviously that outcome is something he wants, but I still think its interesting. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/5/23987817/beeper-mini-imes...

Apple maintains iMessage compatibility with devices that are long out of support, if Beeper Mini is sufficiently similar to the client in for example iOS 12 then it makes an Apple decision to break Beeper fairly expensive. Even if they do the work to publish iMessage updates for the old iOS versions it just buys a little time before the new version gets reverse engineered, and that at the cost of poor user experience…

> Even if they do the work to publish iMessage updates for the old iOS versions it just buys a little time before the new version gets reverse engineered

There's probably a cliff in complexity. Once Apple starts requesting signed attestations from the secure enclave on the devices that have one, it's game over.

They probably don't just yet, since still too many people use iMessage on first-party clients that don't have one, e.g. Intel laptops without a T1 or T2.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#368

Post by ronyeh »

kayson wrote: post #359
sircastor wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the "ugly green bubble" that people hate, and ostracize others because of. It's the limitations of SMS messages coming into an iMessage group chat that can mess up the whole experience. Media is crappy, group messages don't work well, it's not encrypted. That said, It doesn't justify people being jerks about it. And yes, if the colors got swapped it would turn out the same - nobody cares about the color. I g…

That's not entirely true. By one metric, at least, the green bubble is "uglier" - https://uxdesign.cc/how-apple-makes-you-think-green-bubbles-...

Thank you.

Old school iOS SMS used black text which was much more readable.

It’s as if I’m writing with yellow highlighter on white paper. Painful.

Worse, it changes the color of (gasp) the iPhone owner’s outgoing messages. So as an android user, you’re messing up MY texts and ruining MY perception of myself. Ugh.

Yes, humans are stupid. But it would be nice if Apple let me customize the colors in my app. I did just pay them over $2K for new phones for my wife and me.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#369

Post by 999900000999 »

I don't actually think Apple will care enough to get rid of this.

But why not simply migrate away from iMessage, FB Messenger, Whatsapp and other services already offer most of the same features.

Or, hear me out. Normal texting still works. Trying to get in the cool Apple club without paying the toll seems counter productive.

Anyway, I'm not trusting a startup with my communications in this situation. I have no way to know what controls you have in place.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#370

Post by WD40ForRust2 »

stefan_ wrote: post #335
dadoum wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not the developer but I also looked at that binary to help the project at some point. It's taken straight from OS X 10.8 (more precisely from an Update Combo on their download portal). It's calling NACInit, NACKeyEstablishment and NACSign functions from it (which have no entry points but with reverse engineering the offsets have been figured out). They are themselves relying on OS X system functions to get devic…

That seems like a problem. Emulating the protocol is okayish-to-gray but having the binary there will just be a straight DMCA. Wonder what the actual app is doing since this is just the PoC.

I hope we get to a place where people like this simply generate an OpenPGP key/OpenSSL certificate for a pseudonym and just throw this stuff up on .onion and .i2p domains. A place where DMCA and copyright literally cannot be enforced because it's impossible to.
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