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Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

stevenbuccini.com

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Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#361
post #3

I'm guessing #7 contributed to the fact that it took the author 1 year to find another job. If you're desperate, you can most likely find an _okay_ job in 3 months. If you don't have the luxury to wait for a "good" job, finding a job tends to happen faster.

Just curious, what do you define as an _okay_ job? Would you be willing to pay the opportunity cost to take it? For what it's worth, I thought the same. I applied to over 50 companies and not all of them were FAANG by any stretch of the imagination. I'll admit I'm not the best at interviewing, which certainly was a factor. But even as I broadened my search to the "okay" roles, I still had difficulty landing work.

Coming off my own job search, my take is that the era of remote work has fundamentally changed the entire process. I'm going on 24 years of professional experience and applied to more jobs in that search than in the rest of my career combined. Prior to this year, I've had exactly two applications that didn't result in an interview, and only 3 interviews that didn't result in offers.

In this past search, I applied to about 50 jobs and had 4 interviews. According to LinkedIn stats, most of those jobs had 30-200+ applicants. The results of those applications were:

  ~12 screens with recruiters that resulted in rejection
  ~ 8 rejections w/no conversations
  ~20 no reply whatsoever
  ~ 3 rejects in first round
  - 1 second round reject
  - 1 final round reject (a nearly 2 month process!)
  - 1 offer for about 50% of my previous salary, but a more more interesting role
  - 2 replies indicating a desire to move forward that came 6 weeks after my application, and after I'd accepted a job.


My takeaway is that it's a numbers game now. In the past, I was very highly targeted in my searches, but now that the doors are wide open to everyone across the country for many roles, it's about getting someone's eyes on your resume, and that requires a certain level of aggression in applying.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#362

I survived the dot com crash (yes I'm old). I have hired (interviewing team member, or hiring manager) hundreds of engineers. If you are hearing "let me know if I can help" (number 5) you might be doing something wrong. You should be hearing some version of " I will talk to my boss" or "I will call for you" or "XXX person I know is looking". I have a list of about 30 people who if they call me I'm going to go out of…

I thrived in the dotcom crash while I watched many of my friends go to companies with generic names like "Global Digital Media" with silly business plans like putting Internet kiosks in U.S. airports. It was incredible - their entire business plan was to ramp up over the next 5 years with a massive capital outlay just in time for smart phones to make them completely obsolete. This is an actual example:

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/22/technology/the-web-withou...

I thrived by staying put. I got retention bonuses while my friends got tons of equity in companies that became 0. When they lowered their salaries to conserve money, they gave them more equity to compensate. Again, all the equity became 0.

Everything you said about networking is spot on. I would add to it - don't waste time. Don't think, "I'm going to ride on my severance and unemployment for six months and start on x date." Start literally today. If it's the holidays and nobody is hiring, get a certification. Learn a new technology. Work on networking. Exercise. Do 8 hours of productive something every day.

I have a friend who has been unemployed the last 2.5 years. He now wishes he didn't take a year off without improving himself / looking for a job.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#363
Was laid off in March 2020 (senior dev/lead), took 1.5 years to find another job. Share author's disbelief in "job market in unbelievably strong", "people quit jobs because they are unhappy and hop to better positions", "employers cannot have enough IT workers" and similar statements.

By extension wondering how accurate overall job market statistics are; "Employers are scrambling to find workers" while layoffs have been in full swing for months now.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#364

I survived the dot com crash (yes I'm old). I have hired (interviewing team member, or hiring manager) hundreds of engineers. If you are hearing "let me know if I can help" (number 5) you might be doing something wrong. You should be hearing some version of " I will talk to my boss" or "I will call for you" or "XXX person I know is looking". I have a list of about 30 people who if they call me I'm going to go out of…

Mainly agree, but maybe can be a bit more generous.

"30" sounds low to me, having worked in large companies for many years. Sure, the number of people you worked super-closely with for years is maybe in double digits but you probably know a lot of other people by reputation (which is still good signal) and there may be low effort things you can do for them. I try to, anyway.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#365
post #325

I survived the dot com crash (yes I'm old). I have hired (interviewing team member, or hiring manager) hundreds of engineers. If you are hearing "let me know if I can help" (number 5) you might be doing something wrong. You should be hearing some version of " I will talk to my boss" or "I will call for you" or "XXX person I know is looking". I have a list of about 30 people who if they call me I'm going to go out of…

"We brought along the people we thought were the best, who we got along with, who would get the job done" I really appreciate the sentiment. In my experience such networks have been self-serving and mostly exclusionary, rewarding loyalty more than competence. "You need to make some changes" is not particularly helpful when you're outside the fold. What's typically unstated is something about loyalty, esp. not disclos…

> In my experience such networks have been self-serving and mostly exclusionary, rewarding loyalty more than competence.

I think that's all true except for the "more than competence" part and it's a good thing. Competence is directly related to loyalty. When you recommend someone for a job and they excel, it makes you look good. It makes you loyal to them and giving the opportunity makes them more loyal to you. If someone isn't recommended you for job openings they know about, it's because they think you might make them look bad, either through experience with you or the lack thereof. Unfortunately, it takes time to prove you're competent and gain that loyalty.

Sometimes nepotism can creep in and someone can use their influence to get someone under qualified into a position they shouldn't but that influence was, generally, built through competence, including a history of recommended qualified and competent people.

> The best advice someone could give? > 1. Achieve impressive things > 2. Never give anyone a reason to dislike you

I think the real advice is be reliable and don't be abrasive. A recommendation for a position goes a long way because it alleviates the risk of hiring an unknown person that may be unreliable or not be able to work with other people.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty good advice. Get stuff done and be likable is good.

I have a colleague who almost feels like he's actively trying to make me hate him by throwing completely unrelated to work off-hand remarks in the most basic thing I do, like telling people that I'm gonna take a lunch break or just opening up a terminal prompt while we pair program. I know it's off-topic but It's hard for me to try to be likeable with people who are actively trying stuff like that, and I don't know w…

I think I don’t fully understand the opening up a terminal prompt part of that comment.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#368
post #251

I was laid off in April 2020 as well, and while some of my experience matches the author's some of it was very different. Being laid off was not a relief -- it was terrifying. All indications were that a severe recession was coming. Frankly, it was quite surprising to me that companies were hiring at all given the uncertainty. It was not obvious at the time that broad sectors of the economy could seamlessly move to 1…

I have a bit to go before I’m a software engineer over fifty, but I have a lot of anxiety about it primarily from an ageism standpoint. I don’t really want to go into management because I love coding and solving problems, but I fear that one day I’ll will struggle to find work due to my age.

What has your experience been with this issue?

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#369

I survived the dot com crash (yes I'm old). I have hired (interviewing team member, or hiring manager) hundreds of engineers. If you are hearing "let me know if I can help" (number 5) you might be doing something wrong. You should be hearing some version of " I will talk to my boss" or "I will call for you" or "XXX person I know is looking". I have a list of about 30 people who if they call me I'm going to go out of…

> Im going to do this because they are good, because they don't suck, because they will get the job done. They will make me look good as the person who brought them in/onboard.

This maybe makes sense from a hiring manager's perspective, but I think a lot of the people who say "let me know if I can help" are non-management peers. At most companies, the best they can do is enter their recently-laid-off colleagues information and resume into the internal referral system. Yes, that's usually better than going in through the "random applicant from the internet" funnel, but it's still limited. Even if they have a good relationship with the hiring manager, often the applicant still has to go through the funnel, and it's easy to get lost there. This usually isn't an issue with smaller companies that have less process, though.

Regardless, on the few occasions where I (as a non-manager) have referred someone and they've been hired, I don't think it gave me much of a reputation boost as someone who brought someone good onboard. Regardless, there are certainly some people for whom I'd go above and beyond to try to help them get an interview, but I'd do that because they are close friends whom I want to help, not because I of any professional perks of successfully referring someone, which I absolutely don't care about.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#370
When I was at the spot before covid, I felt very venerable and desperate at the same time. I was junior and just started my career. At the beginning of job search, I tried to tell people the true story behind. However, once I opened that, it immediately became a gossip where the recruiter was more interested in the details than my competency for the job.

I survived it eventually after 6 months but I wish I knew all the truths before that.

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