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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#361

Post by monocasa »

refurb wrote: post #345
throwawaycities wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said it was a complete list. On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.

You’re playing fuck-fuck games with your arguments and not being honest. I could just as easily turn that argument around and say “why would the US want to sign onto an agreement that include countries like Jordan and Cambodia that have no rule of law”?

Which countries other than the US that don't welcome ICC authority do you think are doing it for noble goals?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#362

Post by endominus »

dragonwriter wrote: post #357
endominus wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not obviously wrong to break a law to save a child's life though. I don't think that's a fair interpretation of what was said. The claim made was that they broke the law , which is wrong to do on deontological grounds, especially for the institution tasked by society with enforcing the law. They may be justified by utilitarian ethics, but a police department setting the precedent of "if we believe the need is g…

> The claim made was that they broke the law, which is wrong to do on deontological grounds That...depends on your chosen deontological framework. In deontological ethics some acts are morally obligatory (or prohibited) independent of their effects on human welfare, but which acts are obligatory or prohibited depends on the deontological framework selected. You could select a deontological framework where “obedience…

Certainly, but it appeared to me that the post claiming that what the police did was wrong was indeed operating from the framework that a police department not subjecting itself to the laws it upheld was wrong in the deontological sense. Hence the claim "Yes, obviously. At the very least, they very obviously broke a law. They should file charges against themselves." That's not a utilitarian statement - it operates from the framework that the action itself regardless of circumstances was wrong, and while a jury or judge could exonerate them, they still have the duty to place themselves under arrest.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#363

Post by rayiner »

mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

> Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs.

I don’t know if I agree with that. I think folks underestimate how much conflict in interests “regular people” in different countries really have.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#364

Post by kerryoco »

cryptonector wrote: post #293
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point. Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina du…

the rhetoric on all sides has been hyperbolic for years - I imagine if we could graph the use of "treason" or "lock [X] up" in public discourse we would see an explosion around 2014 and continuing straight to today.

What gives me hope is:

a) McCarthyism (surely that was worse, yet we made it through)

b) this language is happening on privately funded cable news that approx 5% (I believe) of Americans watch on a daily basis. That's a far better place than coming from government officials.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#365

Post by mrtksn »

rayiner wrote: post #363
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

> Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. I don’t know if I agree with that. I think folks underestimate how much conflict in interests “regular people” in different countries really have.

Conflict of interests between communities has nothing to do with a community limiting its own people's rights or resorting to atrocities in order to make the job of someone in the community easier.

See, this specific situation has happened because a worker decided that their job will be accomplished easier this way. For the mass surveillance or denial of privacy for people is based exactly on the same idea: If they have access to people's communications they will spend less time and money to do their job in comparison to more involved traditional methods. I find it ridiculous that people are expected to be harmed or denied privacy in order to improve the efficiency in an institution.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#366

Post by freeflight »

ericmay wrote: post #311
freeflight wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But yea sure whatever. Here's 5 seconds of Google search [1]. That's neither a French citizen nor is it anything beyond an anecdote. If you can show me France's equivalent to Pakistan [0], then we might be getting somewhere. > I think that's a bizarre distinction to draw. Why would a military operation justify anything? It's not bizarre at all; Weapons of war being used in a conflict of war is something very differ…

> That's neither a French citizen nor is it anything beyond an anecdote. Well I don't know why it would matter that it's a French citizen. And I'm not sure how in the world you're claiming this is an anecdote as if France's drone strike were untrue. Do you have a direct source that contradicts the account of the French government? > If you can show me France's equivalent to Pakistan [0], then we might be getting some…

> Well I don't know why it would matter that it's a French citizen.

Because the US is even droning its own citizens [0], you were the one who originally brought this up as something the US allegedly does not do.

> And I'm not sure how in the world you're claiming this is an anecdote as if France's drone strike were untrue.

In that particular case it's not even clear it was a French drone that got him, the French only reported his passing, but going after him was a joint operation together with the US.

It's an anecdote because France has only been using drone strikes since 2019 and only in Mali, that's about two decades after the US first started droning people and about a dozen fewer countries droned.

> Why would I need to show you that? You asked for an example, not "show me an exact equivalent to this thing I haven't previously mentioned".

I asked for an example of a country constantly droning some place or another, which the US very much does, as the US has the most active and largest scale (global scale) drone program on the planet.

> Ok then we're at war with Pakistan (since that's the example you're using). Great now we're back to where we started and you got the "war" designation you wanted.

The US is not at war with Pakistan and I'm not "wanting" any designations.

You where the one who claimed "doesn't stop other countries" like the US drone program ain't some massive outlier, like the US didn't champion and normalize this for two decades.

And it only became normalized as nobody dared to seriously call the US out on it, even those who are directly enabling such US atrocities [1]

[0] https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o...

[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/08/germany-could-have-deli...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#367

Post by refurb »

monocasa wrote: post #361
refurb wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re playing fuck-fuck games with your arguments and not being honest. I could just as easily turn that argument around and say “why would the US want to sign onto an agreement that include countries like Jordan and Cambodia that have no rule of law”?

Which countries other than the US that don't welcome ICC authority do you think are doing it for noble goals?

A better question is - which countries that did sign the Rome agreement will conveniently back out when one of their own citizens is up for charges that they don't agree with?

The ICC is no different than the UN - an international body that is a convenient cover for powerful nations to cloak themselves in.

Charges against African despots? Well Europe is on board for that!

Charges for war crimes during the Afghan war? Whoa there! We never agreed to that!

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#368

Post by tehwebguy »

bell-cot wrote: post #88
dhosek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a HUGE faction in congress (they go by a name that rhymes with schmepublicans) that would have punished him severely if he had done that. The presidency is not as all-powerful as some people think it is, sometimes this is good, sometimes not so much.

Early in a new President's first term, "I promised over and over to do X while I was running for President, and the American People very clearly voted for that" is d*mn good political cover for doing X.

Not to mention, who cares? Do the thing or don’t be president.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#369

Post by the_af »

refurb wrote: post #346
the_af wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just to be precise, being American means you're from the United States of America. I don't call myself North American, for example. Neither does anyone else. When you introduce yourself you don't say "Hi I'm the_af and I'm from America". No, this is false. I call myself American. We're from the Americas. (North)American exceptionalism is bullshit. But my point is that disagreement over US policy and their role as w…

Sorry you’re not American. At least not in the way the word is used today.

"Sorry" how? Don't feel sorry for me, I'm happy to remain American and will also always be considered so by my fellow countrymen.

But the point is that using these words, "American" and "anti-American", to refer to how people across the world choose to bow down -- or refuse to -- to the way things are handled by the US, is absurd. If you don't look up to the US you're not anti-American.

Nobody is "anti-American" just because they don't think the US is (or even should be) the guiding light of freedom and morality in the world. Nobody is anti- or un- American because they think the US is not above the rules.

"You're either with us or against us" -- a ridiculous and jingoistic mindset.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#370

Post by tehwebguy »

whatshisface wrote: post #6
bogantech wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No president is going to do anything about it because the intelligence agencies almost certainly have blackmail material on them all

A president was recently elected that had more viable blackmail material released about him than any previous president and instead of launching missiles into Sudan like Clinton did a couple days after his scandal, he just slid past it.

Indeed, the last 4 years presented a very unique (maybe even a once-in-a-country’s-lifetime) opportunity. It’s a shame he squandered it.
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