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Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

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Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#361

Post by betwixthewires »

robocat wrote: post #343
betwixthewires wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you live, but you're the one that is out of touch. 2 tanks a week? 200 bucks a month for shit tier food? Ever heard of cooking? 1400 a month rent? I've spent time in Houston, on minimum wage, and in the past decade. It was alright. I even had the money to go out drinking every weekend, by Rice university at that. Usually when you hear arguments like this and you get down to brass tacks, you start t…

> arguments that allude to the real culprit, things like "I should be able to have extra money for fun" which usually translates to "I blow my money on things I can't afford and then blame the world for being broke." Should we live in a world where we are wage slaves where 100% of our earnings are spent on the bare necessities such as food and shelter? One of my friends has $20 to spend on herself after her frugal bi…

> Should we live in a world where we are wage slaves where 100% of our earnings are spent on the bare necessities such as food and shelter?

No.

> Surely we work to be able to spend some money on the pleasures of life?

Money doesn't buy happiness. The best things in life are free. And sure, if you have money to spend on fun things, have at it. If you don't and you want to, try finding a way to do it. It really is up to you. But the idea that if you do not have disposable income to engage in consumerism you're going to be unhappy, well I'll just say that's a terrible starting point for your argument, and a mindset that breeds unhappiness quicker than tight finances.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#362

Post by dstaley »

simfree wrote: post #286
j1elo wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vehicle insurance on an old vehicle: $300/mo Wow. In Spain you would pay between €150 to 200 per year of insurance for the typical old cheap car. 400/year for a nice, semi luxury one. I knew some things were expensive in the States, but this particular one surprised me a lot.

Depending on the car and where you live insurance can be lower or higher. Outside of collector/classic car insurance policies (eg: this is not a daily driver car and you agree not to exceed a low number of miles yearly) or parked insurance (a few hundred miles a year), there is not $200 to $300 a year car insurance in the USA. Tribal reservations don't require license plates or insurance usually, and you cab choose t…

> Outside of collector/classic car insurance policies or parked insurance, there is not $200 to $300 a year car insurance in the USA.

Absolutely beg to differ. I was on a high-deductible, low-benefit plan for a two-year old used economy car in Louisiana with no marks on my driving record for $250/month. The insurance cost was more than the monthly cost of the car. That being said, it was more than the state mandated liability insurance, but it still wasn't anywhere near the levels of insurance I now have in Washington State on a brand new Tesla Model 3. As you mentioned, it's highly dependent on where you live, but it's absolutely feasible to be paying $200-$300/month for insurance.

Edit: Apologies to parent comment. This was a reading comprehension failure.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#363

Post by imtringued »

jfengel wrote: post #200
cratermoon wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think America has been too scared of inflation for too long This is true! The Federal Reserve, since the Carter administration, has acted like even the slightest bit of inflation is impending doom.

Remarkably, since the tail end of the Bush administration, it's the opposite: the Fed has desperately tried to get inflation up to its 2% target level, and mostly missing. The reasons are debatable, but I'd argue that it's mostly because the mechanisms they're using end up inflating the stock market instead of consumer goods. There are economists terrified of any inflation, but it's an attitude that's more popular wi…

The Fed is terrified of inflation, that's why it's only using tools that cannot cause sufficient inflation.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#364

Post by kixiQu »

humanrebar wrote: post #338
rbg246 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percen...

88 percent of people making the federal minimum wage are older than 20. A third are older than 40. Median age is 31. More than half work full time.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#365

Post by robocat »

ryan93 wrote: post #249
seibelj wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly - working crap retail and food service jobs during high school was as much (or more) valuable education than what I learned in school. Certainly motivated me in college to study and work hard. The value of working is not only in the money earned, and I will force my children to get part-time jobs during high school.

Why make your kids earn a profit for someone else? They should be learning and hanging with friends. You didnt learn more working fast food than in school. You hated it which motivated you. Not everyone needs to experience fast food to know its not a great career outcome.

My friends that worked hard while at school or studying have been relatively successful. They just seem to be more focused to earn money.

The counter-examples I can think of involved drugs or health issues.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#366

Post by bogwog »

honksillet wrote: post #56

There are no such things as “jobs americans won’t do”. It’s just you have to compensate people accordingly. With this failing stealth UBI experiment that we are currently engaged in, people aren’t willing to work when many of them are getting near 100% the same income not to work. The rest of us are being crushed by inflation.

This is not UBI at all. If someone starts working now, they lose those unemployment benefits they're getting. So the question becomes: should I work my ass off at this shitty job to make $X, or should I stay unemployed and make $X?

If it were real UBI, these people could work those shitty jobs while still receiving the extra income every month. It's still a shitty job, but you also get the added benefit of not having to live in poverty while you do it.

EDIT: Also, this situation is further proof of how useful UBI would be to the economy. It would be the government helping businesses by subsidizing wages, making even crappy unsustainable jobs livable and attractive to workers.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#367

Post by rufus_foreman »

inetknght wrote: post #164
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

I've lived on minimum wage before. Those numbers are not realistic.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#368

Post by michael1999 »

fighterpilot wrote: post #265
michael1999 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firms in a competitive market are price takers. None of them individually can raise prices. But an increase of the minimum wage increase affects all of them together, and will cause a new equilibrium at higher prices.

That assumes no substitutes, but in reality this will increase the relative cost of restaurants compared to home cooking which will reduce demand for take out.

Sure. But labour is only a third of costs. And given the relative bargaining power of landlords, owners, and labour, the flow through to retail price might be less than you think.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#369

Post by fighterpilot »

dmitriid wrote: post #350
fighterpilot wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes no substitutes, but in reality this will increase the relative cost of restaurants compared to home cooking which will reduce demand for take out.

Ah yeah. You can always look at how Europe is empty and has very few, if any, restaurants with their minimum wages and healthcare. Oh wait...

I said that it would reduce demand, not that it would eliminate it.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#370

Post by humanrebar »

dstaley wrote: post #354
humanrebar wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

Two things: 1. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, about half of people making minimum wage or less are older than 25 years old. 2. A single person working a full-time job (32 hours) at minimum wage makes $12,064. The US federal definition of poverty for this individual would be anything below $12,880. So yes, minimum wage workers are literally, by definition, working for poverty wages.

I don't find those talking points convincing.

For one, even with your statistics, half of folks employed are school-age. Also, poverty is measured by household. Confusing the math isn't a good way to make a quantitative argument.

But mostly your argument is a semantic trick around the word "poverty" to rationalize weighted terminology.

Again, I have strong feelings that employers should be conscious of the lives and prospects of their employees. For instance, having policies that lead to irregular patterns of night and day shifts that have to be unhealthy long-term. But we can have rational discussion about these issues.

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