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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#361

Post by [deleted] »

marricks wrote: post #338
clcaev wrote: post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

I agree, if one wants to avoid the conflict of a union a work place should be at least 51% employee owned. Short of having mandatory employee ownership unions are the next best thing, and one is far easier in the US. Otherwise we have what we have now, rampant unfairness and tension but no conflict because the board can get away with whatever conditions PR allows them to get away with.

[deleted]

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#362

Post by porb121 »

EvilEy3 wrote: post #176
KaiserPro wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professional certifications, tests, dues, stupid rules about who can do what job when? No thanks. That can be part of a union, but then they are democratic, so it depends on who you elect to run things. A bad union is just like a bad employer. > I'll gladly collectively bargain for higher compensation and better conditions though. I mean that's literally the point of a union. they are there to bring the money to ta…

[flagged]

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#364

Post by runarberg »

pmorici wrote: post #295

Calling this tweet "anti-union" seems like spin. It is pointing out facts that one might want to consider before deciding to unionize. The fact that employees lose stock options when they unionize isn't so much a threat as it is a fact about how unions work because historically unions are against any kind of incentive or merit pay so they refuse options as compensation. It is a fact that UAW hasn't negotiated options…

(I have a gripe with the stock market so take this post with a grain of salt)

idk. In my experience I would much rather get payed for my work in money I can use immediately, rather then being forced to play a game in a system I don’t believe in. I’ve worked for a few companies which gave me stock options (one of them was really good) and in practice what you end up getting is less then a month salary at best. I think companies love to give stock options because it adds bells and whistles to your benefits, it looks like they are giving you more then they are. If I had a choice I would much rather see my salary go up as the company raises in value then to be handed out stock.

That said, I’m not well versed in union logic so I don’t know if this is the reason why unions are against this practice. I am just glad they are.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#365

Post by 3pt14159 »

hnarn wrote: post #319
pmorici wrote: post #295

Calling this tweet "anti-union" seems like spin. It is pointing out facts that one might want to consider before deciding to unionize. The fact that employees lose stock options when they unionize isn't so much a threat as it is a fact about how unions work because historically unions are against any kind of incentive or merit pay so they refuse options as compensation. It is a fact that UAW hasn't negotiated options…

I'm a very pro-union guy, so I'll give my five cents just for the sake of discussion: Firstly, I don't know the context in which this was tweeted, but looking at it, it's not in my opinion egregiously or "obviously" anti-union, but the definition of this is of course a legal one and not a subjective one, so it doesn't really matter what any of us "think" is anti-union, what matters is the legal text in the region whe…

I have a nuanced opinion on unions after dealing with a bunch of them in a former life as a construction inspector / structural engineer (EIT).

Some unions are great. IBEW Local 353 comes to mind. The best unions have slogans like "when the boss is well paid, we get what we want in negotiations" and the worst unions have essentially the opposite mindset. I've literally seen members from ATU Transit Union Local 113 throw an empty coffee cup on the ground during a nighttime subway construction project and say "job creation" during their duties.

There is a right way to do unions and a wrong way. Germany seems to get this better than North America. Too often in North America things get divided into pro-this or anti-that, instead of being a discussion on how to do something right or how to properly align incentives so that the right outcome happens.

I'm not anti-union. I like the protection that some unions provide their workers; especially in specialized, high risk trades like welding or electrical. That said, I don't think Tesla would be Tesla with a heavy union throwing unnecessary delays around. Their safety record is quite good and their compensation is better than average even without the stellar stock performance. Before advocating that Tesla should unionize I'd prefer to see structural changes in unionization come to North America so that we have an environment that fosters a healthier relationship between employer and union. I don't want every North American company rusting away like Detroit.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#366

Post by hedora »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #317
clcaev wrote: post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

The biggest confusion I have is everybody seems to approach Amazon and Tesla unionization as "hopefully it happens so workers will get better wages!" I could be wrong but... I'm pretty sure Amazon and Tesla pay great relative to their space. Relatively demanding, sure. I get it. We've all seen the article where some Amazon worker urinated in a bottle because "the job is just so ruthless!". They employ hundreds of tho…

I don’t see why people expect existing US unions to improve the situation. They have entrenched political interests and represent many different industries. Once they’ve managed to get into an company, they’re repeatedly demonstrated they have no interest in listening to or advocating for the workers they represent.

I’m actually for having unions, but they should be limited in size, and it should be easy for workers at a given site, or with a particular job role to quit the union and form their own.

As it is, with an Amazon union, employees will have two abusive monopolies to fight instead of just one.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#367

Post by colinmhayes »

dragonwriter wrote: post #126
colinmhayes wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low tech societies still have capital. I was looking at givedirectly recipient stories, https://live.givedirectly.org/newsfeed/search?search=Kenya+C... . Almost everyone uses their money to invest in their home, livestock, or children's education. The push and pull between capital and labor absolutely exists here.

> Low tech societies still have capital. I was looking at givedirectly recipient stories, I was referring to historical low tech, small community societies, not any places integrated enough with the modern global economic to have “givedirectly recipient stories”. But, that aside: > Almost everyone uses their money to invest in their home, livestock, or children's education Neither a home nor children's education is c…

There aren't really any communities large enough to be considered societies and are so cut off from technology that they couldn't be the recipients of givedirectly. Homes and human capital are absolutely capital.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#368

Post by karaterobot »

hrktb wrote: post #242
aborsy wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this naive image in mind that unions are labor activists mobilizing against exploitative corporate practices. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the realities on ground, that seemed like almost opposite. As usual, life is more complicated! * The objective of trade unions is not to protect workers and improve their conditions (at least directly). It’s to protect themselves. * In every organization, there exists…

Going through all of your point, it felt like every “unions” mention could be replaced with “management”. Protecting themselves ? check. Politicized the work environment ? check. Abusive practices ? check. Skewed view of the world and cronyism ? check. I think what you are seeing is just a reflection of who succeeds in French companies. Some chose unions, some management, some find other niches, but none of these see…

You're right about that, but I want to support the original commenter a bit and point out that management isn't going away, and adding unions on top of that is not an improvement if they share the same flaws.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#369

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #305
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say unions are not successful, I said that workplaces like VW or Porsche are not the norm in Germany. They're like Germany's FAANG; very successful, but not the norm for every industry employee there since they don't all enjoy such good conditions.

I have yet to hear people in Europe being upset that they are unionized.

Again, I didn't say unions are bad, I said they're not the norm for every employee in europe

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#370

Post by astura »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #317
clcaev wrote: post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

The biggest confusion I have is everybody seems to approach Amazon and Tesla unionization as "hopefully it happens so workers will get better wages!" I could be wrong but... I'm pretty sure Amazon and Tesla pay great relative to their space. Relatively demanding, sure. I get it. We've all seen the article where some Amazon worker urinated in a bottle because "the job is just so ruthless!". They employ hundreds of tho…

It's probably (mostly) not about pay.

Unions can (and do!) negotiate working conditions.

Dunno about Tesla but based on everything I've read, Amazon's "blue collar" workforce appears to have productivity requirements that are mostly unobtainable without taking shortcuts (like skipping lunch and bathroom breaks) and these jobs appear to have an extremely high turnover rate, which speaks to the crap nature of the job.

A lot of people would not mind taking a small cut in pay for more humanitarian working conditions. People, generally, like being treated like people and not machines. But I don't actually think this is needed, I think Amazon can both improve working conditions and make a strong profit.

For a quick example, my cousin has a union job where a paid lunch break (half hour) was negotiated every day. Union leaders routinely make their rounds around the office to make sure everyone is actually taking their lunch break and not feeling forced to work through lunch.

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