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The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

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Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#361

Post by valarauko »

Grustaf wrote: post #351
valarauko wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be worth wasting a few doses here and there if it greatly decreases the level of corruption in the system. While reasonable in isolation, I would suggest that this view doesn't account for the extreme scarcity of the vaccine, and the stretched healthcare resources. I mean, while I work 300 feet from our hospital and our vaccine stockpiles, it was quicker to travel to the neighboring county with a lower cas…

Perhaps the simplest solution would be that after they select who is to be vaccinated that day, they also select 30 or so as backup, and tell them to be ready because it _might_ be their turn so they might get a phone call that evening. Those 30 could simply be the first 30 from the next day.

True - a lot of people think a waitlist of people might be the way to go.

Unfortunately, the way the system is setup right now, at least from my own experience in NY, is not like this. The appointment itself is treated as sacrosanct, and the time on it is meaningless - it only gets you through the door on that day. You can show up at any time. I think the vaccination starts at 7 AM. Considering how far in advance the appointments are given (months at this point) and how inconveniently many centers are located, it's a tough call for most people.

It probably would be better to have a separate wait list of opportunistic recipients, who say they can show up at an hour's notice at the end of any day. To prevent abuse, the people vaccinated through this waitlist can't exceed 10-20/day. Honestly, let these people be the family members of the healthcare workers at these sites. I have absolutely no qualms with the household of hospital workers get preferential treatment with the vaccine - they're at elevated risk as it is.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#362

Post by DataWorker »

vharuck wrote: post #187
DataWorker wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Billions in unemployment fraud last year means billions in government services that will not b we going to help people that really desperately need help.

But I wonder about the value in the end. If we spend X to prevent Y dollars in fraud, then Y - X can go to people who need it more. As long as Y > X, that's good for the deserving beneficiaries. However, from a society-level view, how much value do we get from the X spent in prevention? We're funneling money to a specific goal, so some verification is needed. But the more we verify, the more man-hours we spend on fil…

“ At least it goes back into the economy. ”

Actually no, at least 40 billion went to a Nigerian scammer group. That’s a national security issue and overrides concerns about charity and equity. It’s an existential threat.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#363

Post by prepend »

SamBam wrote: post #356
prepend wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that there are incentives to just keep finding 10 vaccines about to expire. I think the issue here is that the organization was stupid and unable to use them. And while the doctor’s motives seem virtuous, his wife got a vaccine ahead of schedule. I think we have to improve efficiency, but not also set up a system where friends and family of doctors get preferential treatment because of proximit…

I agree with you that that's the part that made it "look bad," but it sounds as if he truly did everything he could to give it to other people first, gave it to her only as a very last resort with minutes to go, and she was eligible anyway. If he wanted to cover-his-ass, he shouldn't have given it to her. If he wanted to actually do the right thing, he was doing the right thing.

I think that’s what the case will show with a conviction or acquittal.

I think it’s hard to know how much someone tried or didn’t try superficially based on a Times article and the doctor’s story.

The system is so messed up that the director of covid vaccinations can’t even find 9 people to vaccinate in six hours.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#364

Post by TimTheTinker »

pksebben wrote: post #347
TimTheTinker wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably in this case OP is referring to identity politics and intersectionalism. Basically, the more categories of historically marginalized people groups an individual belongs to, the more acceptable that person is, the more of a voice they’re allowed to have, and the more laudable it is to favor that person (and the more unacceptable it is to fail to favor that person regardless of the circumstances). This doctor…

this is a straw man. where in the article / materials related to the case is race brought in to question? are we treating Indian-Americans as a majority group now? that's nonsense. You paint a picture of the "progressive calculus" that's quite obviously not informed by any actual exposure to it. I can only imagine the image you've adopted was gathered from outsider perspectives on what the word progressive means.

I never mentioned “race”, and neither did the DA in her court filings, as far as I know.

The problem she had with his decision was that he was “favoring” certain people in an unfair and illegal way — a conclusion that could only be reached by disregarding every question about the incident except “who”. That approach finds its origin in modern progressivism, where the only truth that matters is “who”.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#365

Post by pas »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #364
pksebben wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a straw man. where in the article / materials related to the case is race brought in to question? are we treating Indian-Americans as a majority group now? that's nonsense. You paint a picture of the "progressive calculus" that's quite obviously not informed by any actual exposure to it. I can only imagine the image you've adopted was gathered from outsider perspectives on what the word progressive means.

I never mentioned “race”, and neither did the DA in her court filings, as far as I know. The problem she had with his decision was that he was “favoring” certain people in an unfair and illegal way — a conclusion that could only be reached by disregarding every question about the incident except “who”. That approach finds its origin in modern progressivism, where the only truth that matters is “who”.

I'm reading this thread and things are not getting clearer, sorry.

The DA (she) charged the pharmacist (him), because he favored non-blacks. What is the "who" refer to? What's modern progressivism? What's its origin?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#366

Post by StillBored »

afiori wrote: post #348
StillBored wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, thats a loophole, just get it done with the camera's rolling? In the US much of the vaccine resistance is a result of the news/propaganda channels a particular party (which Greg Abbot belongs to) uses to generate fear and doubt in order to win elections. So they generate the problem, then they get to help show its safe? I mean they aren't going to convince any of the hardcore conspiracy theory people they weren't…

you don't need to convince hardcore opponents, mostly you need to convince undecided people. just like in an election.

The last few elections in the US haven't been won by convincing people. They have been won by getting people who are already convinced to actually vote. That is why the undecided voters portions of most poles were basically 0%.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#367

Post by yowzadave »

BowBun wrote: post #203
ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I'm generally for social welfare programs, however the idea of "welfare queens (and kings)" is NOT fiction. I come from Belgium which has this problem quite notoriously. It is quite common for people to be abusing the social programs to stay unemployed and make more income than blue-collar workers. Like you allude to, I think we need to look more deeply to address this issue - why are people satisfied doing nothing a…

It's important to remember that the unemployed are just one small part of all non-workers that social-welfare programs are intended to assist. In addition to the unemployed, you have children, the elderly, the disabled, students, and unpaid caretakers. In the US at least, the burden for supporting many of these non-workers falls on their individual families. Why do you think such attention is paid to "welfare queens (and kings)" whenever the welfare state is brought up, even though they are just a fraction of one group that the welfare state is intended to support? Do you think it could be precisely because there's an easy narrative that gets people viscerally worked up about unfairness?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#368

Post by yowzadave »

omg_ponies wrote: post #335
rayiner wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people mostly don’t do stuff like actively edit Wikipedia. I’m a big fan of having a robust social welfare system, but we need to acknowledge realities that maybe we don’t prefer to acknowledge. Many people on welfare are idle don’t do anything meaningful with their time. The response to that isn’t necessarily to cut welfare. It could mean taking a bigger picture look at society to see how changes have affected p…

> Many people on welfare are idle don’t do anything meaningful with their time. Do you have a citation for this claim? My understanding is that enormous numbers of welfare recipients are elderly, frail, or have chronic medical issues.

Or are students, or are children, or are taking care of the elderly/disabled/children/etc.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#369

Post by upbeat_general »

nickpp wrote: post #246
acover wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true. In emergencies we explicitly do not allow price gouging because it just doesn't work. If it was a free market then the vaccine would cost 10k and few of those who benefit most would get it. That's not efficient or fair.

Actually freezing prices is the best way to create long term shortages. We saw that last springs when countries with free markets kept having N95 masks available, at slightly elevated prices while countries that imposed priced controls did not have any until fall. In a free market the vaccine would’ve cost 10k for a month while producers would’ve been scrambling to increase availability and production to take advanta…

I think you’re looking at this too much from a pure demand theory point of view.

Ignoring the moral issues with distributing a live saving vaccine based on who has enough money, I don’t think that free market pricing would have made things much faster.

It’s not like any random person can get into the business of complex vaccine manufacturing. The companies and the government have already been scrambling to get it out faster but even if you believe that there is/was more room to incentivize the 2(?) main companies making the vaccine then again the government(s) could just say pay the companies more/less based on the timing of doses.

However I really don’t think that additional profit motive was a factor here. If there was more room to say build another factory at some high cost, I find it hard to believe that these companies would decide not to and not offer governments an offer to expand capacity (eg. we can give you X doses and bump you up but we need more money to build the factory).

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