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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#361

Good for Google. I don't know anything about her, but her debate with Lecun on Twitter was enough for me to know she is toxic. I don't care how good of a researcher she is. The fact they fired her given the current climate shows they actually have balls. I had no idea... I read her email. You know what's crazy about it? she is talking about Google silencing marginalized voices. She keeps referring to herself as a mar…

What about that thread shows she's toxic?

For me, toxicity often boils down to these questions: Are you acting in good faith or not? Are you acting to resolve a disagreement and advance knowledge, or is the primary function of your speech to inflame and provoke? Do you accept that it is possible for smart people to disagree with you, or do you believe any disagreement is completely unacceptable?

When I view Gebru's Twitter argument with Lecun throug the above lens, it is pretty obvious to me that she is behaving in a toxic manner.

In that fracas, she emphasizes emotional appeals and "you just need to listen to us" and "I'm so sick of this". She also takes a page from the AOC school of argument where you (the rhetorician) play the meta-game where you judge who is allowed to participate in discourse (hint: everyone who disagrees with me is excluded!). It's a useful trick, for once you have purified the field your arguments will easily win.

Lecun later offered an olive branch and apology, but, true to form, Gebru doesn't offer any hint of awareness that she also may be responsible for the toxic devolution of the conversation. She personally blamed Lecun for her getting trolled, whilst failing to acknowledge that he was also being trolled by her supporters.

Later, and separately, when Google calls her on her resignation bluff, she employs the "call out" tactic, where she accuses Jeff Dean of personally firing her in an obvious attempt to shame him. This whole affair reeks of a PR play (and thus, not acting in good faith). That, to me, is highly toxic.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#362
post #319
post #217

I found this particularly telling: >But now there’s an additional layer saying any privileged person can decide that they don’t want your paper out with zero conversation. Decisions in megacorporations are made in one direction, from the top on down. If this is her main point of contention, I sympathize but that's what you get for joining one of the largest corporations in the world. It seems both parties will be bet…

> I hope her research won't suffer for it. of course it will. The big tech companies have created networks of users and user data that is beyond anything that can be replicated in an academic or laboratory setting. By saying that it's fine for corporations to have draconian oversight over research about the systems they build, what you are saying is that these systems cannot be researched for any purposes other than…

edit: I'd also like to point out the obvious: Google was censoring her publications. How can you suggest that remaining in that environment is going to be conducive to her publishing high quality research?

I disagree because I don't think Big N has exclusive access to the data necessary for cutting edge research. You don't need petabytes of data to train cutting edge neural networks.

It also seems she published the paper she is best known for before joining Google, suggesting academics are not submitting subpar research compared to Big N.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#363
post #296

Unrelated, but hiring by race or gender is inherently racist. We should hire by skill alone whether the person is a Lesbian Black Female, or a White Male

Diversity initiatives are like a graduated social tax. As a passably straight white man I can afford to pay more than an LGBTQ person of color. Just like I can pay more in income taxes than people in different financial situations. It doesn't bother me if an applicant pool is made a bit bigger for marginalized people than myself, because I do not struggle to fall into any applicant pool whatsoever and have not for mo…

The first problem is you’re making the issue worse, not better. It feels good to some white men to publicly announce that they are unworthy of anything positive in their life, but if anything is reductionist, it’s that. Trying to justify racism to combat disproportionate representation (which is not an indication of racism or bias whatsoever, and we know this) is the type of evil behavior (not to mention mental gymnastics) that have no place in a society that has made so much progress. Also, your usage of “caste” is highly inappropriate.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#364

I think this is actually the better link to be discussing, rather than the twitter threads shared before. The most relevant parts (in terms of back story) should be this: > A week before you go out on vacation, you see a meeting pop up at 4:30pm PST on your calendar (this popped up at around 2pm). No one would tell you what the meeting was about in advance. Then in that meeting your manager’s manager tells you “it ha…

"feedback" here seems to refer to feedback on the scientific paper that is being retracted, not personal performance feedback or anything like that. When I red this first, wasn't immediately clear what this was about.

The problem was her almost incoherent email that failed to communicate her thoughts in any way a sane person could understand.

I guess I'm not woke enough to comprehend these people.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#365

Chief AI Scientist at Facebook, Yann Lecun, quit Twitter after a back and forth with this particular AI researcher - https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter... >I’m always amazed at how people can continue to do thing after thing like this and then turn around and ask me for some sort of extra DEI work or input. This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which K…

> I think if you threaten to sue your employer, the employer isn't too much at fault and just covering their own neck when you later threaten to resign and they take you up on that offer.

It's not clear to me here what you're advocating for -- a lawsuit wouldn't be raised by such an intelligent and virtuous individual unless there was some clear wrongdoing. Are you saying that you think workers shouldn't sue their employers if their employers are breaking the law?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#366
post #6

> And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document and you’re not supposed to even know who contributed to this document, who wrote this feedback, what process was followed or anything Interesting. Having been on the receiving end of a (later proven to be bogus) HR complaint, this is exactly how it was handled. I was forced to respond to allegations where neither t…

I remember that I read somewhere (maybe here on HN) years ago that HR is like the secret police of police states. Nobody willingfully talks to them, except their bosses. The dynamics of this incident, the secrecy, the lack of care about people, enforce that metaphor. I wonder what People Ops is, something more about logistics maybe. Still paid by the company, so it can't be on the side of employees.

People Ops is HR.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#367
Let's try to be honest about this. Any executive who receives this letter (and they will certainly be involved due to the liability concern) will immediately conclude that Gebru has to be gotten out as quickly as possible. The venom drips from the letter. It is clear that she is not a salvageable employee who could operate with the business interest of Google in mind.

Sadly, she will undoubtedly come up with some trumped up reason to sue for discrimination and probably be bought off with a settlement.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#368
Does anyone have a link to the paper? Jeff Dean's email response mentions mitigations that were made to address the concerns, but didn't go into any detail.

Similarly, it raised concerns about bias in language models, but didn’t take into account recent research to mitigate these issues.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#369
post #355

The character revealing bit is this: > Have you ever heard of someone getting “feedback” on a paper through a privileged and confidential document to HR? Does that sound like a standard procedure to you or does it just happen to people like me who are constantly dehumanized? She was told by her bosses boss to retract a paper. Whatever is it that paper, and whatever the reasons or the delivery method are, there is not…

I'm torn on this. Actually, if you think you're a researcher and then feedback comes in this weird way, that seems pretty weird. At the same time... "people like me who are constantly dehumanized" - really? I mean maybe, but to me this sounds like hyperbole, and actually, weaponized hyperbole. This is someone who's a respected and presumably very highly paid researcher. Dehumanized ?

“People like me,” not referring to her privilege, but to women and people of color, I would guess. Since there are serious culture and systemic biases / prejudices against women and PoC.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anger is a distraction. The allegations are most important. "Google silences minorities/women/AI researchers" is way more interesting/important than "Google/AI researcher did/didn't misbehave."

Can we be more careful with our language? Saying "X silenced a minority/woman" or whatever is not saying that "X silenced a minority/woman because they are a minority/woman". It isn't really clear with your first quote if one thinks that silencing people generally is okay, but not minorities/women, or if silencing anyone is never okay, or if the minority/woman was silenced merely for their demographic status.

It's an abbreviation for any/all/some of those things being more important/interesting than what most of discussion here is about (whether letter/firing is appropriate)
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