Live data from Hacker News

AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

platformer.news

351–360 of 926 posts

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#351

Good for Google. I don't know anything about her, but her debate with Lecun on Twitter was enough for me to know she is toxic. I don't care how good of a researcher she is. The fact they fired her given the current climate shows they actually have balls. I had no idea... I read her email. You know what's crazy about it? she is talking about Google silencing marginalized voices. She keeps referring to herself as a mar…

I dunno. Consider that when Google found that a sexual harassment claim against Andy Rubin was valid, and so Google asked him to leave, they also paid him 90 million bucks when they didn’t have to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/tech...

“ Google could have fired Mr. Rubin and paid him little to nothing on the way out. Instead, the company handed him a $90 million exit package, paid in installments of about $2 million a month for four years, said two people with knowledge of the terms.”

Let’s assume that’s true. What is worse behavior? Obviously his. Yet he gets paid.

It’s not an apples to apples comparison but if google was to say to anyone, “goodbye and don’t let the door hit you on the way out”, shouldn’t it be this guy and the other dudes mentioned in the article?

And IMHO the fact that they didn’t is a great example of systemic sexism in action. So it’s not unreasonable to wonder if similar forces played a role in this situation.

It’s not surprising that companies function like this but that doesn’t make it right, and, it doesn’t mean that (even though change is slow) it isn’t possible to change norms.

We don’t know the full details; Googles firing of her may be valid.

But to be as dismissive of her being a representative of marginalized groups, and facing prejudice (conscious or unconscious) herself, is wrong. IMHO.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange to take issue with the "I'm so tired" line. It would seem to be entirely appropriate for circumstances where you see an argument that you have replied to many times but that completely ignores your reply. It also just doesn't strike me as particularly hostile or profane. Quitting twitter and making a show of it strikes me as a far more emotional reaction, but nobody here seems to take any issue with…

This post is a really good explanation, and I wish it had been in that Twitter thread.

The comment by the first John in the comment of the article here [https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter...] adds a lot of insight too (starting with "As I understand, the social and structural problems are that AI learns the social and structural biases that are already present.").

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#353

I'm confused, where are the "Demand #1" and "Demand #2" that were referenced in the reply to her email?

The email from Jeff Dean in the article describes one of them - to ubmask all of the anonymous feedback provided on her paper and list everyone who was consulted on the decision to prevent publication.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I would post my email here but my corp account has been cutoff."[1] [1] https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334353073012158464

See that's interesting, considering she managed to post the manager's response verbatim..

It would be logical for the manager to send it to another account so she could read it.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#355

The character revealing bit is this: > Have you ever heard of someone getting “feedback” on a paper through a privileged and confidential document to HR? Does that sound like a standard procedure to you or does it just happen to people like me who are constantly dehumanized? She was told by her bosses boss to retract a paper. Whatever is it that paper, and whatever the reasons or the delivery method are, there is not…

I'm torn on this. Actually, if you think you're a researcher and then feedback comes in this weird way, that seems pretty weird. At the same time... "people like me who are constantly dehumanized" - really? I mean maybe, but to me this sounds like hyperbole, and actually, weaponized hyperbole. This is someone who's a respected and presumably very highly paid researcher. Dehumanized?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#356

Good for Google. I don't know anything about her, but her debate with Lecun on Twitter was enough for me to know she is toxic. I don't care how good of a researcher she is. The fact they fired her given the current climate shows they actually have balls. I had no idea... I read her email. You know what's crazy about it? she is talking about Google silencing marginalized voices. She keeps referring to herself as a mar…

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#357
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about that thread shows she's toxic?

I know you are referring to 'that thread', but in this email (from the article) she said: "So if you would like to change things, I suggest focusing on leadership accountability and thinking through what types of pressures can also be applied from the outside. For instance, I believe that the Congressional Black Caucus..." Skipping parts of the chain of command to deal with grievances is usually a toxic behaviour. Tr…

If you've got strong reasons to believe your chain of command is going to respond not at all (or worse, badly) to your grievances, then going outside that chain is not toxic, but simply attempting to be effective.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#358
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She said, "If you can't meet these conditions, I will resign effective ." Google said, "We can't meet these conditions, we accept your resignation and move it to ."

No, she didn't say that. She said she may set a date in the future for her resignation. That is non-committal and non-specific. Your characterization is inaccurate.

People will have to find the source document, which to the best of my knowledge is not public (note, not the message to Women and Allies), read it, and then reach their own conclusions.

I stand by my characterization. She characterizes it herself thusly:

"I said here are the conditions. If you can meet them great I’ll take my name off this paper, if not then I can work on a last date."

https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334341991795142667

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#359

Chief AI Scientist at Facebook, Yann Lecun, quit Twitter after a back and forth with this particular AI researcher - https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter... >I’m always amazed at how people can continue to do thing after thing like this and then turn around and ask me for some sort of extra DEI work or input. This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which K…

The tone of her replies is regrettable: Yann: “ML systems are biased when data is biased" Timnit: “I’m sick of this framing. Tired of it. Many people have tried to explain, many scholars. Listen to us. You can’t just reduce harms caused by ML to dataset bias. Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you fol…

Women and people of color are often silenced using the tactic you just employed -- ignoring the substance of a message and dismissing all concerns because the "tone" doesn't seem "appropriate" to you.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#360
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about that thread shows she's toxic?

I know you are referring to 'that thread', but in this email (from the article) she said: "So if you would like to change things, I suggest focusing on leadership accountability and thinking through what types of pressures can also be applied from the outside. For instance, I believe that the Congressional Black Caucus..." Skipping parts of the chain of command to deal with grievances is usually a toxic behaviour. Tr…

> Skipping parts of the chain of command to deal with grievances is usually a toxic behaviour

Not if you've already attempted to escalate up the normal chain of command. In such cases it's often considered morally required.

Post reply on HN