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Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

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Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#361

Post by rcpt »

xivzgrev wrote: post #295
rcpt wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as someone in NYC NYC is a legit megacity - New York has been described as the cultural, financial, and media capital of the world. SF is small by comparison. Only a small portion of SF is walkable and even then the blocks are long. Transit is sparse and dirty and most people end up owning cars. Despite this housing is more expensive than NYC. Unless you think it's reasonable to pay $4k a month for a one bedroom in…

Bro have you ever visited indianapolis? Yes the two cities are about the same size population but that’s about the only similarity. SF has a different climate, geography, cities, people, food, politics, etc.

I don't buy it that SF climate/nature is so amazing that everyone is moving for it. It's a good place for windsurfing/surfing but other nature activities require a 45min drive which honestly isn't that unique.

Food? Meh. Another thing that NYC and LA trounce SF on.

People, politics? SF is ground zero for nativism and wealth inequality. There's abject poverty around every corner and the long time residents have no trouble pushing policies to exacerbate it.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#362

Post by khyryk »

zzzzzzzza wrote: post #163
wwwwwwwww wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, its society and its lack of compassion does it. Not "the homeless".

or maybe just prop 13

What do you call a 2% per year tax on a $800k+ property? Permanent rent.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#363

Post by Consultant32452 »

ghaff wrote: post #105
luma wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd respond that low-cost areas, when compared to San Francisco, includes something like 90%+ of America. Presuming all talent must come from the coasts is missing a pretty wide swath of very qualified candidates who speak your language natively, who went to top-flight schools, and who live/work in or near your time zone.

Yes and that's one reason why I would expect to see companies that go more heavily remote hiring preferentially from low cost areas of the US rather than China. (Along with IP laws, etc.) As I say, I'd expect more remote jobs to flatten out tech salaries a bit--especially within the US. Mostly not 100% but if I don't need you to live in the Bay Area, I'm probably not going to pay you extra to live there any more than…

Obviously the post-covid world may be completely different, but my personal anecdata is that my income went up when I went fully remote over a decade ago. Instead of the hand full of local large employers competing for my labor, the whole world is competing for it.

It's important to remember that these economic concepts flow both directions. Power dynamics fluctuate over time, but don't let anyone convince you that you're always on the short end of the stick. You're not.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#364

Post by in3d »

Green_man wrote: post #271
Tiktaalik wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lmao at the idea of caring about $20k when you make $250k

8% of income is significant for almost everyone. It could be easy for someone living on a lot less to assume that a marginal 20k doesn't matter to "rich people", but lifestyle inflation and regional cost of living differences should be considered.

It would actually mean around 12.5% higher after-tax income. And after considering minimum fixed expenses, such as housing or food, these state tax savings become even more significant.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#365

Post by enra »

apexalpha wrote: post #336
Green_man wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8% of income is significant for almost everyone. It could be easy for someone living on a lot less to assume that a marginal 20k doesn't matter to "rich people", but lifestyle inflation and regional cost of living differences should be considered.

I'm in Europe and we generally pay between 33% to 50% of our income in tax. So, yeah, i can't really imagine being angry that you're being asked to contribute back to the society. Especially when you make 250k.

The difference is that in US you also pay federal income tax and then additionally state income tax if one exists. The authors point was just that the its lucrative to move to another state, and save on the state taxes.

The other difference is that as individual you almost get nothing for your taxes. Childcare, college education, health care, pensions, everything is private and something you or your employer has to pay.

In Europe paying taxes feels better since in many countries you actually lot of this stuff for free in an exchange from the taxes you pay.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#366

Post by analog31 »

john_moscow wrote: post #289
captaincole wrote: post #102

I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know who were living in the city have left, or are in the process of leaving. Some examples (there are countless): 1) All three of the roommates that I had are choosing to leave either permanently or temporarily. 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a…

Interestingly this seems to only cover people who don't have kids. Do you think people with kids are stuck in SF, or have they moved out much earlier?

Oddly enough a traditional risk of moving with kids is the "lost year" due to the disruption of changing school districts. But this year is going to be lost anyway, and a 100% certainty is no longer a risk. And if school is going to be online anyway, then they could stay plugged into the old district until they get fully plugged into the new one.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#367

Post by p1mrx »

baron816 wrote: post #327
captaincole wrote: post #102

I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know who were living in the city have left, or are in the process of leaving. Some examples (there are countless): 1) All three of the roommates that I had are choosing to leave either permanently or temporarily. 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a…

Alternate experience: I just moved into SF a week ago from elsewhere in the Bay. I was able to get a large, modern, luxury 1BR in a decent location for under $3K + almost a 1 month concession and no deposit. Being a single, young(ish) guy, it still makes sense to be in a city. I have more space than I need now, and I can afford the rent. Maybe things aren’t that nice right now, but I’m hoping they’ll get back to semi…

But you're just renting... won't the price skyrocket when things go back to normal?

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#368

Post by thewebcount »

smallnamespace wrote: post #282
kbenson wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article actually notes this: > It should be noted that San Francisco had an unusually low inventory relative to other large cities prior to the pandemic. Historically, the ratio of homes for sale relative to total housing has been a quarter of New York's. But then they go on to assert that this is important regardless, but don't actually provide any information to back it up. > Regardless, the 96% year on year ch…

If you're a renter and you when lease renewal time comes up and you see twice as many open units in your apartment, wouldn't you also bargain more aggressively with your landlord? Conversely, if you're a building manager and you an X% occupancy rate target, you're going to need to cut prices in order to maintain that rate if a bunch of tenants don't renew. This is pretty much textbook microeconomics 101. Going a bit…

> wouldn't you also bargain more aggressively with your landlord?

It depends on the landlord. If they were reasonable, then yes, I'd bargain with them. If they were total pricks for most of the time I was there, then screw them. I can get my lower rent and hurt them in the process. I'll try that option! (At least, I bet that's the thinking of many people.)

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#369

Post by babesh »

untog wrote: post #349
willio58 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is going on a road trip a bad idea? I mean bring a mask, only shop weekly and keep food refrigerated, and keep social distance.

All of those things reduce risk, they do not remove it. And given that you can be asymptomatic for two weeks there’s a very real danger of spreading the virus. And there isn’t really a good reason to be doing it right now other than “I want to” so it’s not difficult to see it as a selfish act. (the friend travelling from city to city and staying in Airbnbs sounds considerably worse to me, though)

Probably not that bad since, with the advent of masks and social distancing, supposedly ~95% of cases are NOT from community spread. Most of the spread is from dense living situations and meeting with friends and family without masks when you shouldn't.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#370

Post by justchilly »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #241
justchilly wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make $250k in SF (sounds high, but about average for the people I know that are leaving SF), state income tax alone is $19,996. If you make that in Texas, state income tax is $0. That $20k/year is for many people a bigger deal than the cost of living. Most people I know leaving were home owners or rent controlled. Source: moved to Austin in June.

lmao at the idea of caring about $20k when you make $250k

It's expensive being well off. If you make $250k a year, you take home $159k in SF. A big chunk of that goes to cost of living such that the $20k means one of your two kids can't go to the college they want because it's $50k per year, and you don't qualify for financial aid.
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