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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#361

Post by Mikhail_Edoshin »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #360
Mikhail_Edoshin wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sane rational logical person has an addiction. The sane rational logical tools he has do not help him to get rid of it. This means he cannot trust them. There's a flaw somewhere and he doesn't know where. They are not good for any conclusion, including the agency and power of that bar. The best he can do is to drop them and admit he knows nothing. Then there's a chance to learn something new that may help with that…

Which doesn't make a Zagnut bar an agent that has power, does it?

I don't know.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#362

Post by ada1981 »

_1tan wrote: post #347
ada1981 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you available for hire of analysis of research?

Would love to chat about hiring research analysts. I seem to be in the same position as you. Email is info@koanmail.com.

Emailed.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#363

Post by runarberg »

placer wrote: post #350
runarberg wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And for "rates of continuous abstinence" they found a positive effect. It’s been a while since I reviewed the literature for substance abuse disorder, but if I remember correctly it was highly disputed whether complete abstinence was necessary (or even beneficial) for treatment. Has this changed? The argument was that by focusing on abstinence you are setting a significant part of your patience up for failure with…

I am very skeptical about claims that heavy alcoholics can ever moderately drink over a significant period of time again. There are a lot of studies showing successful moderate drinking over the short term, but the studies are always short-term studies using self-reporting data. Active alcoholics are downright dishonest about how bad their alcoholic drinking is; they will claim it is moderate drinking to anyone who a…

I’m sorry, but you rephrased my question:

The question is not whether “heavy alcoholics can moderately drink”, which you claim skepticism over, and I—for the record—claim ignorance.

The question is: “is complete abstinence necessary for some cases of substance abuse disorder?”

We have ample observational evidence that complete abstinence does relieve many people from the symptoms of substance abuse disorder. We also have some anecdotal evidence that that is not true for everyone.

I also have a problem with the term moderate drinking. I’m sure—although here I’m ignorant as well—that patients aren’t encourage to moderately drink. Rather they are—again I’m guessing—not told to have failed if they do drink.

Say a recovering alcoholic has a night out of heavy drinking, but that does not further negatively impact them, i.e. they won’t relapse into a constant drinking habit. I would hold on calling that a failure. In fact it might be actively damaging for their psychological well being to say that they failed, which might actually cause a severe relapse.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#365

Post by placer »

runarberg wrote: post #363
placer wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very skeptical about claims that heavy alcoholics can ever moderately drink over a significant period of time again. There are a lot of studies showing successful moderate drinking over the short term, but the studies are always short-term studies using self-reporting data. Active alcoholics are downright dishonest about how bad their alcoholic drinking is; they will claim it is moderate drinking to anyone who a…

I’m sorry, but you rephrased my question: The question is not whether “ heavy alcoholics can moderately drink”, which you claim skepticism over, and I—for the record—claim ignorance. The question is: “is complete abstinence necessary for some cases of substance abuse disorder?” We have ample observational evidence that complete abstinence does relieve many people from the symptoms of substance abuse disorder. We also…

The statement “by focusing on abstinence you are setting a significant part of your patients up for failure” sounds like advocating “moderate drinking” to me.

If we’re not telling alcoholics that abstinence is the goal, we’re telling them they can “moderately drink”. “moderate drinking”, simply put, is what we call non-abstinence for alcoholics.

This is very different from saying that a one-day relapse is a complete failure, and, yes, I agree that Alcoholics Anonymous is too focused on raw sobriety time.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#366

Post by runarberg »

placer wrote: post #365
runarberg wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, but you rephrased my question: The question is not whether “ heavy alcoholics can moderately drink”, which you claim skepticism over, and I—for the record—claim ignorance. The question is: “is complete abstinence necessary for some cases of substance abuse disorder?” We have ample observational evidence that complete abstinence does relieve many people from the symptoms of substance abuse disorder. We also…

The statement “by focusing on abstinence you are setting a significant part of your patients up for failure” sounds like advocating “moderate drinking” to me. If we’re not telling alcoholics that abstinence is the goal, we’re telling them they can “moderately drink”. “moderate drinking”, simply put, is what we call non-abstinence for alcoholics. This is very different from saying that a one-day relapse is a complete…

> The statement “by focusing on abstinence you are setting a significant part of your patients up for failure” sounds like advocating “moderate drinking” to me.

Sorry, that was not my intention. Like I stated earlier in the thread, it’s been awhile since I reviewed the literature. I’m not a psychologist, and I’m neither a recipient nor a practitiner of Cognitive Behavior Therapy for Substance Abuse Syndrome.

That said I’m sure therapists have a way of negatively reinforcing the damaging drinking behavior in such a way that a single night out is not considered a failure. I don’t know how they do it, but they are experts and I’m sure they know how to.

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