Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "Are they gay?" It's funny. From the days of chivalry all the way to the modern patriarchy, men's behaviours have been conditioned by one overriding factor: what will impress women? I don't see that evaporating overnight. Men suppress the emotions for the simple reason that women have demonstrated a preference for men that do that, and th…
12th or 13th century chivalrous poetry from South of France was still full of feelings and what have you, and a little earlier the Arthur-related stories were not void of feelings either. I personally blame the “Protestant ethic”, for lack of a better name, which started culturally imposing itself starting with the mid-1600s in England and present-day Netherlands (in the early 1600s a guy like Shakespeare was still n…
Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
361–370 of 402 posts
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination. I think this is where meditation (and stoicism) deviates from some types of psychotherapy and most support groups. Meditation teaches you to look at feelings dispassionately, which helps you lessen their power. This is very different than treating each emotion as if it is "correct" and in need of resolution v…
I thought that the way "introspection" is supposed to work was as a way of asking oneself: "wait, why am I feeling this emotion in the first place? Where does it bottom out, so to say?" Because that in turn tells you what strings to pull at in order to "resolve" the emotion in a comprehensive way. While this cannot be done without regarding the emotion as at least putatively "correct", I'd say that it's far from inco…
Say you are pissed because you did not finish a job, but your job performance is increasingly better. Your emotion is not guiding you anywhere useful. It can be useful to understand dispassionately, and then choose to endorse it (that is, this seems a feeling that points to a correct direction, I will thing about solutions) or not (that is, this seems a feeling that does not point to where I want to go, thank you for your message, but I would rather not act on it).
Sometimes feelings are mistakes, like a optical illusion. Sometimes they are not.
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#363I love HN...I've been waiting for this topic :-D I'm a man who has focused on and has been building tools to get better at expressing my emotions since 2012, including an app called iFeelio, in which I answered the question "how do I feel" over 4,000 times across 4 years and a class called Emotional Self-Defense, which I've run in the US, Europe, and Africa. I have realized and re-realized many things along the way.…
You'll have to keep running it over the next 4-8 years to filter out the short term cultural changes. The expression of sadness will likely ramp up from it's locked up baseline now to 2024.
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
12th or 13th century chivalrous poetry from South of France was still full of feelings and what have you, and a little earlier the Arthur-related stories were not void of feelings either. I personally blame the “Protestant ethic”, for lack of a better name, which started culturally imposing itself starting with the mid-1600s in England and present-day Netherlands (in the early 1600s a guy like Shakespeare was still n…
Did the majority of 12th century French women consider those poets attractive?
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about reality is harsh, and of that harshness, what is best addressed by emotional armor, and of that , do you know of any better coping mechanisms than that emotional armor? Although I do have a direction in mind, I am legit asking to understand your perspective and knowledge.
1. A single, recent example of harshness: 6 weeks ago Epstein was suicided because his trial might have led to even a few of the super rich 1% from getting reprimanded for raping child sex slaves. Not only is there nothing any of us can really do about it, the world forgot in less than week. Bad is winning. No path to utopia takes the "let them rich rape children" fork in the road. 2. Emotional armor: The above examp…
I disagree that they're reality.
There's reality, consensus reality, and the outcomes of our collective actions. Including the second two in the first one implies it's unalterable, implies they're not fundamentally artificial.
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#366I think we're starting to hit a critical moment with this. As men we have an unbelievable amount of expectation on our reactions, communication, behavior, past behavior, and others behavior. (Their friends and their partners) On top of all of this: Men spaces have been mostly eliminated.
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are many problems with your argument, but I’d like to focus on the fact that your understanding of the definition of The Patriarchy is wrong. From Wikipedia[0]: > Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property. How many female presidents have we had here in the USA? What percentage of Fortu…
The majority of college grads are women. The majority of lower-class and blue collar workers are men. Depression and suicide rates are significantly higher for men than women. Nearly all workplace deaths and injuries occur to men. The fact that a small percentage of men are highly competitive and enterprising in a way that puts them in the top does not mean that our social system somehow coddles men or gives them pow…
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand the feeling but I think this is too zero-sum. You know who has the most positive reactions by far to men doing healing work in men-only circles? Their wives/girlfriends. Not because the men somehow become more 'feminine' or lose power, but usually because they get something that they badly needed and were stuck about for a long time.
This is using anecdata to dismiss another poster, and isn’t the kind of comment you’d tolerate from others in a sensitive topic. It’s wonderful that’s been your experience of women, but don’t invalidate what others experience — particularly with a citation free comment. For those wondering why my comment is flagged: dang engages in political censorship, and flagged my account because of my views. I look forward to th…
There's nothing wrong with anecdotes on HN. On the contrary, the threads here are supposed to be conversation, and anecdotes are the life blood of good conversation. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've participated in some of this work and agree that having feeling-sharing be the top line item is misleading. Feelings are involved, but the core of it is to face what one has been avoiding, in order to become stronger and grow. There's plenty of room for stoicism in that. The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it. The difference is huge, and most of us need help to get there—…
>The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it. Publicly? It's one thing to be denial, it's another to acknowledge it to yourself but still elect not to engage in a public display of this. The strongest men I've ever met were not in denial of their emotional state but didn't need to engage in public displays like those listed in the article.
On the one hand yes, there's no need for emotional display for its own sake. As far as I've observed, that is mostly a cultural (or really a subcultural) marker anyhow; some communities value it, that's fine. I'm not personally that comfortable with emotion as a tap that gets turned on and off on demand. (During the group I mentioned above, I told them that if they kept asking me what I was feeling, the only feeling they were likely to get out of me was anger about being expected to feel something.)
That sort of cultural practice is a different thing, though—completely different—from deep feeling coming into experience as part of a healing process. The latter is not a tap and there is no quality of display about it. It is more like a flood that rises from forgotten places, and the healing comes from surrendering to that flood and allowing it to change whatever changes. Maybe after that you become more emotionally expressive, maybe not; I personally think that matters less than people in these communities say it does. But you become more integrated, gain capacity, become less reactive, less conflicted.
The subtle part comes up when you say "Publicly?". Yes and no. I don't think there's any need for ongoing public emotionality. I do think there's a deep reason why healing can't fully happen in isolation. It's because our wounds happen in relationship, usually in early relational experiences, and what is wounded relationally can only heal relationally. Personally I have found that frustrating—I would rather go off somewhere, resolve my issues myself, be a self-healing organism. But I've come to see how this impulse to isolation is actually an aspect of the wound itself, and so not a way to heal. Wounds don't heal themselves—they just repeat until something changes. As far as I can tell, there's no way to avoid connecting with others if you want that to change. But others' mileage may vary, and in any case this connecting needs to happen in safe, closed environments with strong containers, not in random public settings.
Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Cultural changes and evolves, of course, but it's really hard to uproot a norm or more once it's settled in, even if it's one that causes you personal pain. I don’t know if I believe this in general. Certainly we are happy to utterly change our lifestyles whenever a convenient new technology comes about. How much have smart phones or social media changed us culturally in the spans of a couple decades? If culture ca…
Adopting new technology may seem like change, until you go up a level and see it as consumerism. Then you see that nothings changed.