Why did we wait so long for the bicycle? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#361

Post by pushpop » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #66

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #29

>Yet it was a simple mechanical invention As a mechanical engineer, this statement baffled me. All manufactured technology exists in the context of the manufacturing capabilities available to the designer. The manufacturing tech had to be tremendously complicated before a decent bike could be made. Hollow steel tubes aren't simple. Ball bearings aren't simple. There is a reductionist viewpoint among "theory" people t…

Right. And one point that cannot be stressed enough. Good steel, in quantity, only goes back to 1880. Lots of things that "could have been built in antiquity" foundered on that basic fact. Before Bessemer, steel was as exotic as titanium is now. The alternatives are not good. Cast iron? Too heavy and too brittle. Wrought iron? Maybe, but not that great. Lead? Too soft. Brass? Could work, but expensive. A king's kid m…

I don’t disagree with you per se but wooden carts (with wooden wheels) has existed a long time before bicycles.

Albeit such devices would be “powered” by animals rather than people. So the friction of baring-less wooden joints was probably less of a concern.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#362

Post by TimTheTinker » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

nadavr wrote: post #322

grogenaut wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kinda inherent in everything, our tech generally moves upwards based on iterations of improvements. Even cheap mass production shitty stuff is still an improvement. Or do you mean exactly screws? Really when you get down to it, like computers, tools are used like 30+% of the time to build other better tools. Jigs, more accurate cutters, measurement devices, etc. With code that's things like test frameworks, r…

There is an old Jewish tradition (written down in Pirkei Avot ~1700 years ago) which lists the objects that God created "on the eve of the Sabbath at twilight" after finishing the rest of creation. Most of them are religious or mystical in meaning, but the final object listed is "[the original] tongs, for tongs are made with tongs." here's a link to the text https://www.sefaria.org/Pirkei_Avot.5.6?lang=bi&with=all&la…

That's really interesting. The Tanakh never mentions an "evening and morning" for the Sabbath, unlike the first 6 days.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#363

Post by jl6 » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 5:58 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #346

vageli wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The precision of keeping all those threads perfectly spaced is one thing" > Making the first precision screw requires a "screw originating machine".[1][2] This is a special-purpose device which can make a better screw than the ones used in building it. I hadn't realized screws would be needed to create a screw-making machine. I love that we have machines that make better versions of their own components, something…

Which is incidentally yet another reason why it's very important to ensure stability of our technological civilization. We've pulled ourselves by the straps of our boots a couple hundred meters into air now; it's not safe to stop pulling. Given big enough shock to economies and populations, we'll regress not a decade or three, but all the way to the beginning of industrial revolution - you can't build the technology…

In some ways this is what has happened with the transfer of manufacturing to China. Building things requires building components, and their components, and their components, and so on down. That whole stack is withering in western democracies, so it’s incredibly difficult to “bring back” something like iPhone manufacturing without retaining a deep dependency on China anyway.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#364

Post by crygin » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:03 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #346

vageli wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The precision of keeping all those threads perfectly spaced is one thing" > Making the first precision screw requires a "screw originating machine".[1][2] This is a special-purpose device which can make a better screw than the ones used in building it. I hadn't realized screws would be needed to create a screw-making machine. I love that we have machines that make better versions of their own components, something…

Which is incidentally yet another reason why it's very important to ensure stability of our technological civilization. We've pulled ourselves by the straps of our boots a couple hundred meters into air now; it's not safe to stop pulling. Given big enough shock to economies and populations, we'll regress not a decade or three, but all the way to the beginning of industrial revolution - you can't build the technology…

Perhaps more critically, we've burned most of the easily-accessible fossil fuels, which means that if we drop below a critical threshold we won't be able to reboot from scratch because there will be insufficient high-energy-density material available.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#365

Post by pushpop » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:04 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #356

Gustomaximus wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or consider how useless you would be if transported back 400 years. You would be able to offer great advice about washing hands or the solar system generalisations. But actually create something to show people....even the simplest things would be beyond most of us.

If you could figure out how to make wire, you could make a working electric motor.

You’d also need to make magnets, know their polarisation, create bearings, and have the skill to assemble all of that as well.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#366

Post by anticensor » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:04 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #311

anticensor wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, James Watt behaved like a sincere merchant, and he made a more powerful engine than he actually measured, in order to avoid making it again in case he complains that the engine is too underpowered.

Interesting, “It was found that a horse could conveniently raise a weight of 100 pounds attached to the end of the rope while walking at the rate of two and one-half miles per hour, or 220 feet per minute. This is 220 x 100— 22,000 foot-pounds. W att, however, in order to allow for friction in his engine and for good measure added 50 per cent to this amount, thus establishing 33,000 foot-pounds per minute, or 550 foo…

Yes, if Watt behaved like today's marketers, he would design his engine to have 25% less power than he measured and sell two engines rather than one. And he would make some screws loose to sell them again and again.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#367

Post by monktastic1 » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:09 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #350

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #29

>Yet it was a simple mechanical invention As a mechanical engineer, this statement baffled me. All manufactured technology exists in the context of the manufacturing capabilities available to the designer. The manufacturing tech had to be tremendously complicated before a decent bike could be made. Hollow steel tubes aren't simple. Ball bearings aren't simple. There is a reductionist viewpoint among "theory" people t…

> a reductionist viewpoint I once tried to figure out how to make iron from nothing. There are several "from scratch" guides on the internet, but all of them include "buy these needed chemicals from a supply house".

You tried to make an element from... nothing?

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#368

Post by gamedori » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:19 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #346

vageli wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The precision of keeping all those threads perfectly spaced is one thing" > Making the first precision screw requires a "screw originating machine".[1][2] This is a special-purpose device which can make a better screw than the ones used in building it. I hadn't realized screws would be needed to create a screw-making machine. I love that we have machines that make better versions of their own components, something…

Which is incidentally yet another reason why it's very important to ensure stability of our technological civilization. We've pulled ourselves by the straps of our boots a couple hundred meters into air now; it's not safe to stop pulling. Given big enough shock to economies and populations, we'll regress not a decade or three, but all the way to the beginning of industrial revolution - you can't build the technology…

This is also why the protection of supply chains and international trade is essential. The cause of the Dark Ages was the collapse of the security surrounding the Roman road network, making trade hazardous, and subsequent reversion to local production of everything resulting in the loss of technological prowess.

In our current economy, that reversion would be even more painful. In the short term, as much as I hate the US military, their "freedom of navigation" guarantees are essential. In the long term, every nation/bloc should make sure it has the materials to re-bootstrap if necessary.

Here in Korea, we just had to scramble because Japan decided to limit photoresist and high-purity HF exports. I count the scramble as a good thing for national self-sufficiency.

My apologies for going way off topic.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#369

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:22 AM UTC

pushpop wrote: post #365

WalterBright wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could figure out how to make wire, you could make a working electric motor.

You’d also need to make magnets, know their polarisation, create bearings, and have the skill to assemble all of that as well.

None of that is necessary. I built a working electric motor in cub scouts using several feet of wire, tape, some iron nails, some sheet metal cut from tin cans, a wood board to mount it on, and a battery.

Tools required: tin snips and a hammer.

A battery can be made from a jar, lemon juice, and two electrodes.

Believe me, as an 8 year old, my skills were limited to using a hammer to mash my thumb with. :-)

Electromagnets substituted for magnets, and bearings were a dent in the sheet metal that the point of a nail sat in and turned. Simple and effective.

Once you showed this to a medieval craftsman, they could reproduce it and start improving it.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#370

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:23 AM UTC

crygin wrote: post #364

TeMPOraL wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is incidentally yet another reason why it's very important to ensure stability of our technological civilization. We've pulled ourselves by the straps of our boots a couple hundred meters into air now; it's not safe to stop pulling. Given big enough shock to economies and populations, we'll regress not a decade or three, but all the way to the beginning of industrial revolution - you can't build the technology…

Perhaps more critically, we've burned most of the easily-accessible fossil fuels, which means that if we drop below a critical threshold we won't be able to reboot from scratch because there will be insufficient high-energy-density material available.

That too. I'm increasingly strongly of the belief that ensuring the stability of what we have now is the most important thing. We can keep fixing things incrementally, but if we break our civilization now, we condemn the next couple dozen or more generations to medieval life on a severely damaged planet.

That's why it pains me when I see activists crying for correcting the wrongs at all costs, "justice" at the cost of "order". It's ultimately a self-destructive approach that's akin to cutting off the branch you're sitting on, after first setting it on fire.