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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#361

Post by pjmlp »

ptx wrote: post #359
pjmlp wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Maven doesn't require a background daemon eating 2GB of memory to be fast and IDEs can actually provide code completion and documentation while typing. Android is the only reason to have to put up with Gradle.

Gradle 5 lets you write the build scripts in Kotlin, which is supposed to address the code completion issue. (And the continuous build mode is a nice feature!) But, yes, is does use a lot of memory.

So I have to use additionally 2GB, adopt yet another programming language, to get back what Maven already gives me out of the box?

Eclipse and Netbeans compile on file save, can't get more continuous than that.

Re: Java 12

#362

Post by jillesvangurp »

vbezhenar wrote: post #59
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

So far I did not find anything comparable to replace Java for website server language. Go is a terrible extremely verbose language without vital features. JavaScript on Node is limited by single-thread and JavaScript itself is a terrible language (along with other dynamic languages like PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby). Rust is awesome, but I don't think that it'll be ever usable for mediocre developers, therefore it can't b…

Kotlin is a drop in replacement for Java these days. I've switched a few projects now and mix Java and Kotlin during the transition. IMHO Kotlin is a breath of fresh air if you are coming from either Javascript or Java. Typescript is close but it is still javascript and it has a few inherent limitations because of that. Kotlin-js is basically a dropin replacement for that as well.

Re: Java 12

#363

Post by pjmlp »

lmm wrote: post #357
pjmlp wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually libraries that target Android need to use Java 7, unless they want to constrain their users to API 26+.

Is newer Android fully JVM-8 compatible? It'd be great to be able to start using Scala 2.12 even if it means I have to restrict to new devices only.

Not really, a lot of desugering still takes place into DEX bytecodes.

Stuff like lambdas take extra memory, because they convert into anonymous innerclasses instead of invokedynamic.

Re: Java 12

#364

Post by scarface74 »

spricket wrote: post #255
wongarsu wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those points are also true for C#, which imho fixes a lot of Java's problems and is a much nicer language. With .Net Core maturing you even get the "runs everywhere" factor (at least everywhere you care about, i.e. Win+Linux+Mac), and Microsoft is a much better vendor than Oracle.

Completely agree, except that MS was so crazy hostile to OSS that they scared off all the serious guys a decade ago. I wish them the best. The CLR has some compelling features that make it objectively better than JVM on so many levels. But the lack of ecosystem is killing them. And has been forever. The new MS CEO is great in my mind but it will take many years to turn the ship around. Devs don't forget. Best example…

Resharper is $139 a year for a personal license and the price goes down 20% after the first year and 40% year after that. You can also pay monthly.

They also have a perpetual license. If you cancel after the first year, you can keep using the version that was current 12 months ago.

But the one thing missing in Java is anything like LINQ. I don’t mean the syntax I am referring to the idea of LINQ -> expression trees -> third party providers that translate LINQ to another language (sql, Mongo Query, etc.).

Re: Java 12

#365

Post by pron »

gigatexal wrote: post #312
pron wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ZGC, included in JDK 11, has a 1ms average pause time and 4ms max on some demanding benchmarks, and they're now targeting 1ms max pauses. https://www.opsian.com/blog/javas-new-zgc-is-very-exciting/

If it lives up to claims surely it’s a paid for add on?

Originally it was intended as a commercial feature, but since JDK 11 Oracle open sourced all previously-commercial features in the JDK, and now it's part of OpenJDK. It's already available in JDK 11 and 12.

Re: Java 12

#366

Post by scarface74 »

iGoog wrote: post #303
throwawayEntDev wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over that 20 years, C# has been continuously improved with language features added at a faster rate than Java. Some examples: * properties * LINQ * async/await * dynamic types * better generics * inferred typing - `var` * null conditional operators * custom iterators - `yield` * pattern matching Also, .net is more of a “pit of success” language — Java with all its legacy baggage requires a lot more knowledge to avoid…

so... properties that require a steeper learning curve, a system that's worse far worse than JPA+Spring Data (or you could use the hibernate in both languages - a java development), another word for var/let, I'd disagree about generics, var/let again, I wonder what rust devs would say about these null inline conditionals that require more knowledge, and... yield is actually neat if also not another non-traditional ba…

Hibernate is an ORM. LINQ is just what the name says it is language integrated query. Linq is understood by the compiler, translated into expression trees at run time and then any third party provider can translate it to the destination language. You can pass Hibernate expressions around and depending on context, they can get translated to regular IL when working with Lists, Sql when working with RDMSs or MongoQuery when working with Mongo, etc.

Re: Java 12

#367

Post by pron »

tambourine_man wrote: post #278
pron wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think reference counting leads to shorter pauses than tracing? While it is absolutely true that sophisticated implementations of garbage collection via ref counting can exhibit similar performance to sophisticated tracing algorithms[1], most implementations of ref counting aren't nearly as sophisticated as modern implementations of tracing, and tend to be worse. [1]: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~cs415/…

Not necessarily shorter, but predictable pauses.

If your memory usage is regular and predictable, then both ref counting and tracing would behave regularly and predictably, and if it isn't, neither is.

Re: Java 12

#368

Post by jacques_chester »

spricket wrote: post #263
jacques_chester wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree, except: > But Spring is dated and not often used for new projects. Spring Initialzr ( https://start.spring.io ) is used millions of times per year.

Fair enough. The Java ecosystem is huge and I try to keep up but many things slip through the cracks, you'll find many in my furious comment history on the thread. Thanks, looking it ip

No worries. I feel where you're coming from.

Re: Java 12

#369

Post by tikkabhuna »

bpicolo wrote: post #188
pjmlp wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have quite a couple of them running happily with Java 11.

Were there any hiccups in the upgrade?

Donald Smith the (one of?) product manager of Java at Oracle did a talk for the London Java Community[1] recently. He briefly mentioned that getting onto Java 9 was the hard part, 10->11->12 are significantly easier due to the far smaller number of changes in the release.

The meetup was recorded[2]. I can't tell you how far through he mentions it, but its a good talk to watch as he goes into some of their rationale for their approach.

[1] https://www.meetup.com/Londonjavacommunity/events/258987722/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWpo92OBaNA

Re: Java 12

#370

Post by provolone »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #301
MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

The times of ever-changing JavaScript frontend frameworks is long behind us (and, arguably, React has won for MVw-style browser apps). The core node.js web serving APIs (expressjs and core http request API, which expressjs middlewares forwards and decorates) is stable since node.js v0.1 or at least 2015, and infinitely better than Java's servlet, JSP, and taglib APIs (web.xml/jetty-config.xml anyone?). The flip side…

Spring and other frameworks may be popular, but the base servlet api with db connection pooling is enough. This approach feels much lighter than using frameworks. Not sure where the 'over-engineered' view comes from. I'd call that 'sane'.

People complain about the verbosity of Java, but how much time do you spend learning a new framework and all of the gotchas? At the end of the day it seems easier to just write the boilerplate. All of that verbose code means you got exactly what you asked for.

JVM projects never surprise me. When there is a problem debugging is a dream.

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