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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#171

Post by ilovecaching »

hactually wrote: post #164
vbezhenar wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far I did not find anything comparable to replace Java for website server language. Go is a terrible extremely verbose language without vital features. JavaScript on Node is limited by single-thread and JavaScript itself is a terrible language (along with other dynamic languages like PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby). Rust is awesome, but I don't think that it'll be ever usable for mediocre developers, therefore it can't b…

Bit of a Go fan here so just wondered if you'd qualify what you mean by: > without vital features

Vital features is double speak for any Java feature that isn’t in Go.

Re: Java 12

#172

Post by [deleted] »

ilovecaching wrote: post #106
jm4 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know anything about Java? I'm not trying to be insulting. Java has its problems, but your points are so far off the mark. Applets haven't been a thing for 20 years and I'm not sure they were a thing then either. Do you know people make web apps in Java and there's a ton of quality open source libraries out there?

I developed Java (Swing, Spring, JavaFX), managed tomcat deployments, good stuff. I think my question is, do most Java developers really know what goes outside of their window? Every language has a good story for web apps these days. The web is ubiquitous. You can write in Phoenix, Cowboy, Rails, Sinatra, Express, "net/http", Django, Laravel, Flask, Rocket... Java is literally middle of the pack at best. So that's no…

[deleted]

Re: Java 12

#173

Post by ilovecaching »

twic wrote: post #158
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

We should print out copies of this comment, and laminate them, and give them to anyone who thinks that comments on HN are good, as an educational resource.

Limiting personal freedom is what the enterprise Java ecosystem is all about.

Re: Java 12

#174

Post by ars »

vbezhenar wrote: post #37
ars wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or in FunctionalInterface, or in anonymous functions. Makes HashMap computeIfAbsent much less useful than it should be. It's impossible to use a function in there that throws a checked exception (all I want is for the exception to propagate out of computeIfAbsent for the parent method to deal with). Best option I've found is to wrap it in an unchecked exception, then unwrap it in the parent method, which is just ....…

Another option is to fool the compiler. So-called sneaky throws. Something like public static void main(String[] args) { try { sneakyThrow(new IOException("io")); Test. emulateThrows(); } catch (IOException e) { e.printStackTrace(); } } static void sneakyThrow(Throwable e) { Test. sneakyThrow2(e); } private static void sneakyThrow2(Throwable e) throws E { @SuppressWarnings("unchecked") E e1 = (E) e; throw e1; } stati…

This only works if I'm throwing the exceptions myself, but not if I'm using a library function (like a rowMapper for example).

Re: Java 12

#175

Post by SomeHacker44 »

_bxg1 wrote: post #151
spricket wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has already happened in a way. Unity uses a ton of C# for scripting. While C# is somewhat nicer to work with, this low pause GC makes java a compelling option for moving much more logic into the VM language

Yeah, I do wonder how Unity deals with the GC. Maybe there's an algorithm like this one, maybe the engine's core systems (physics and graphics) are written in native code. C# as a language does tend to be nicer than Java, but its VM doesn't have as rich a family of languages.

My limited understanding is that high end Unity devs code their stuff not to make garbage. Unity has a very nice system for profiling that sort of thing.

Also, CLR has F#, which I like much better than Scala (and, no type erasure in CLR), Clojure which is ... just like Clojure on JVM, and C#, which as a Java dev since 1.1 I have come to prefer as a language even as I remain JVM ecosystem preferring on the server side. JVM has ABCL, a neat Common Lisp, and now Graal/Truffle which is super interesting. If not for Clojure though (and maybe Kotlin) I would probably give up on the JVM. Oracle does not help. Just my opinion.

Re: Java 12

#176

Post by user5994461 »

hota_mazi wrote: post #46
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

> it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence Applets, JavaBeans, and CORBA. What a loss. > Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, That stopped being an issue years ago. OpenJDK is a thing, you know? > Java on the web is dead, I don't think you have any idea about the hundreds of millions of lines of Java that power the web as you know it today. The rest…

>>> That stopped being an issue years ago. OpenJDK is a thing, you know?

Well, that's seeing the glass half full.

OpenJDK was complete garbage in the java 6-7 era, less than 5 years ago. Pretty much every major java software was requiring to install the Oracle JDK. Nobody would accept a bug or a support issue if it happened with the OpenJDK, which was the first question to be asked. And that wasn't fear mongering, java applications that worked perfectly fine just didn't work on the OpenJDK.

It is better now. I personally haven't seen an OpenJDK JVM crash in a while.

Re: Java 12

#177

Post by pron »

stefan_ wrote: post #84
_bxg1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Their lower end target is 10 ms. In a game, 16 ms is your entire time budget.

ZGC, included in JDK 11, has a 1ms average pause time and 4ms max on some demanding benchmarks, and they're now targeting 1ms max pauses.

https://www.opsian.com/blog/javas-new-zgc-is-very-exciting/

Re: Java 12

#178

Post by meddlepal »

ilovecaching wrote: post #167
spricket wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're trolling so I'll try to keep this short. Java is old, it's crufty. Yes. But it's extremely fast compared to anything but Go, C#, and "low level" languages nobody wants to touch for web stuff. The JVM is also extremely reliable. I've seen apps run for years straight. And the tooling is better than basically anything. Profiling, debugging, realtime code generation and modification. Libraries for…

> But it's extremely fast compared to anything but Go, C#, and "low level" languages nobody wants to touch for web stuff. Fast is a poor word to talk about benchmarks between languages. Memory, throughput, latency are the things we should be talking about. There’s also trade offs where predictable scaling of latency under massive load is important (Erlang, Elxir), or spending less memory and starting up quickly in or…

> OO in general is not fine.

I smell a zealot or a troll.

Re: Java 12

#179

Post by wokwokwok »

spricket wrote: post #147
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

I'm not sure if you're trolling so I'll try to keep this short. Java is old, it's crufty. Yes. But it's extremely fast compared to anything but Go, C#, and "low level" languages nobody wants to touch for web stuff. The JVM is also extremely reliable. I've seen apps run for years straight. And the tooling is better than basically anything. Profiling, debugging, realtime code generation and modification. Libraries for…

> There's many valid critisicms of Java...

Yes there are.

...but the parent assertion that Java will one day be like cobol; no longer taught in intro to CS course (where now we see python), considered bloated and legacy, and not picked for new projects (where we see the rise of languages like kotlin eating into what was once the primary growth for the language with mobile apps) and encumbered by problematic licensing issues...

Seems quite valid.

You have to live in a bubble right now not to get the feeling Java is stumbling, and there’s no indication to me that the overall direction of the language is positive right now.

...I’m sure there are still years ahead for earning a good living as a java developer, don’t get me wrong, but that’s a different issue.

Re: Java 12

#180

Post by neeleshs »

ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

"One day Java will be like Cobol." I heard that one two decades ago about Java.
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