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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#361

Post by komali2 »

burneracclordo wrote: post #154
komali2 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It boils down to what the American culture, or I guess the employees at Google's culture, are willing to censor. China wants to censor its own human rights violations, I think there morally bad. Certain EU Nations want to prevent fat right nationalist radicalization via censorship. I think that's clumsy, but good. So hence "why single out China." It stops whenever the employees put up a fight. Isn't that the point of…

> Certain EU Nations want to prevent fat right nationalist radicalization via censorship. I think that's clumsy, but good. But, who will be deciding what is considered as ultra-nationalist? Some liberal government that might be overly corrupt and is about to lose the election could just label their political opponents as modern day Nazis and have them be censored on Google search. For example Germany treats the AfD a…

>But, who will be deciding what is considered as ultra-nationalist?

Presumably legislatures, that are elected? I'm not sure how it works over there.

>Some liberal government that might be overly corrupt and is about to lose the election could just label their political opponents as modern day Nazis and have them be censored on Google search.

Well, that's happening in America right now, the executive branch is labeling his opponent political party as Communists, don't respect rule of law, saying they want Open Borders or to "Take the Guns Away!" despite the fact that this is factually incorrect. In the USA, we have several branches of government that helps balance when this happens - for example, our judicial branch recently restored the press pass of a journalist removed for being a thorn in the executive's side. I imagine a balance is similarly struck in these European nations? They are all democracies, right?

It seems very much an age of free flow information and rule of the people. Despite the warning-flag-waving of the alt-right in the USA that labeling people nazis will somehow cause totalitarian liberal rule, it really seems like the opposite is happening - far-right nationalism seems to be on the attack for totalitarianism, with the democratic systems keeping it at bay.

I am very interested in discussing this further, however, because I don't believe it's a simple, black and white issue, and I am curious if there's ways to prevent bad things like far-right nationalism without restricting speech (which, the argument goes, could backfire).

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#362

Post by educationdata »

politician wrote: post #238
educationdata wrote: post #10

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

How many Chinese social credit points would the family members of the signer lose if a Googler were to sign this letter?

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/12/665597190/families-of-the-dis...

"If you are a Uighur, you automatically lose 10 points," recalls Seytoff. "If you pray? Another 10 points. You've been overseas? Another 10 points. You have relatives overseas? Another 10 points. If you're 50 or below, you're unsafe and you go to a camp."

By simply having relatives overseas, you lose 10 points. Now imagine how many points you will lose if you have a relative signed this letter.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#363

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

dagmx wrote: post #181
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’d like to try and agree... I think you may be missing a sense of scale and the reality of just how replaceable people are... even magically-gifted google employees.

There's always a break even point on where keeping an employee is worth less than letting them go. It truly depends on the company and employee though. For many people that point can be extremely high so they have the power to push for ethical (or not) choices. That power of course multiplied by the number of such people.

> There's always a break even point on where keeping an employee is worth less than letting them go.

Not if they are employees that are complaining about doing the job you're paying them to do.

Not that I don't agree with them, but in this case, Google Co has decided a route and the employees don't want to do it. I think they may find that they are more replaceable than the down votes implying the opposite are willing to accept.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#364

Post by jjcc »

patrickaljord wrote: post #9

If I was in China and had to choose between having a choice between censored baidu and censored google vs just censored baidu, I'd rather have both baidu and google. It's easy for us here in the western world as we have access to both and more uncensored sources to take the moral high ground and subject the Chinese to a "let them eat cake" attitude. Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google…

Totally agree with you. I guess that's the real reason that many Chinese googler don't want to sign.

I'm totally against censorship. But I also don't agree the those who see themselves stand on the moral high ground while don't understand the complexity of the issue. Also a lot of people don't differentiate facts and opinions. They blame those who don't agree them are influenced by China government.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#365

Post by wiz21c »

tokai wrote: post #124
komali2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, good for y'all for sticking to your values. How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"?

>How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"? Collective action. They can hire 14 new guys, but they won't have any to instruct the new employees in their work.

this 100%. The business made a business decision : either veteran, that is, most valuable assets get mad and all sort of problems affecting productivty/quality happen or, a few not-yet-realized business opportunities disappears.

That was very pragmatic. Both sides wins.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#366

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

randcraw wrote: post #225
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’d like to try and agree... I think you may be missing a sense of scale and the reality of just how replaceable people are... even magically-gifted google employees.

Negotiations like these aren't won by convincing the other side through making more points via logic or evidence. You must help decision makers to realize that their choice is not win-win, that hidden costs, unwanted consequences, or just plain bad publicity await. Almost always, bureaucrat decisions are driven more by fear of failure than prospect of success. As a naysayer, your goal is mostly to spread FUD and take…

>As a naysayer, your goal is mostly to spread FUD and take the shine off their bauble.

WOW. Yes, that must be it. I can't possibly have an opinion about the matter that doesn't align with yours because surely you are right!

The only logical option here is I am spreading fear uncertainty and doubt - because I'm Google and this directly impacts me. Anyone who disagrees must be silenced because they are wrong!

EDIT: Nope, opinions not allowed. Try and hide anyone that disagrees!

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#367

Post by saagarjha »

hobofan wrote: post #62
bluejekyll wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google can kick them out and replace within a month. Ah. A believer that software engineers are cogs and can just be “replaced” without training and learning of code bases. Hiring software engineers, bringing them up to speed, and having them contribute to production features, is expensive. Also, you’ll never truly recoup the lost knowledge that goes.

At a size of Google, the company has to be mostly constructed out of "cogs", to be resilient. If Google couldn't handle losing ~40 (as of right now) employees, that would be something seriously strange for one of the most valuable companies on the planet.

I'm sure there are sets of 40 employees that would cripple Google, at least be extremely unfortunate if they left together. There are certainly important components with a bus factor of less than that.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#368

Post by infogulch »

abecedarius wrote: post #215
bronco21016 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why this is being downvoted. Google is dominant nearly worldwide. If China is able to get Google to cave and build the censorship machine then what barrier is there to turning the feature ‘on’ for other countries that ask for it? There are plenty of oppressive regimes interested in a censored Google but they don’t have the pull to get Google to build it right now. Once it’s built though why wouldn’…

Further, once Google depends on its China operations for revenue, what's to stop the Chinese state from leaning on them further? With enough leverage, they won't scruple at affecting what Google does in the west as well.

Any company that adds a customer that becomes the source of ~20% of the company's revenue implicitly gives the customer power over the company, the bigger share of revenue the more power. Google would be insane to give this much power over itself to China, ignoring that developing this technology sets the precedent for oppressive regimes to demand flipping on the "more speech suppression" switch.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#369

Post by mandevil »

giobox wrote: post #339
lostgame wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you, for real. It takes a lot sometimes to stand up against something that a lot of other people would jump for the chance to do. While I think the average developer has a more negative opinion of Google these days, for years they have been considered one of the best places to work in the world. I know if I told my parents, for instance, I had done what you did, they probably would've called me an idiot. :P…

> Good for you, for real. It takes a lot sometimes to stand up against something that a lot of other people would jump for the chance to do. While it is a nice enough gesture, let's not kid ourselves that this was some difficult selfless act on the part of the OP. Apologies to the OP if I have misinterpreted their earlier post but: > I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me This st…

You don't just have to live in the Bay Area to get those emails, at the very least anywhere in the US you will get them.

Source: have never lived in the Bay Area. Have a large number of those emails in my gmail.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#370

Post by Aunche »

bad_user wrote: post #333
Aunche wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google makes enough money from China, they would have as much leverage against China as China has against it. The resulting social unrest caused by a major search engine disappearing in China would far exceed any benefit they would get from censoring other countries. In my opinion, it's much more dangerous to allow Chinese tech companies to have a free monopoly without any resistance.

> The resulting social unrest caused by a major search engine disappearing in China There was no social unrest in China when Google pulled out and I’m pretty sure that in the scenario you’re describing, the Chinese wouldn’t give a fuck. I mean they have had plenty of reasons for social unrest thus far, far better reasons actually and it did not happen. > it's much more dangerous to allow Chinese tech companies to hav…

When Google pulled out of China, they has no market share. If Dragonfly isn't successful, they'll abandon that as well. There is a lot of social unrest in China. China does a good job at preventing it from escalating with supression, but that cost would certainly outweigh any benefits of China trying to mess with Google outside their jurisdiction. This isn't even considering how the US simply just wouldn't allow Google to do so.

> Seriously? Why?

Because this is actually happening. We're basically giving up billions of dollars to China for free.

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