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Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#361

Post by blang »

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

Some left leaning think tanks have tried to get this passed under the name "Pay it forward". I think Vermont got the furthest along, but does not seem like it has gotten much traction recently.

One of the problems with this legislation (this is now totally my opinion), is that it only addressed the funding side of things and not the spending side.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#362

Post by Fomite »

specialist wrote: post #353
sli wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we could make only the first time through college free. If you fail or drop out, the next time through, the student covers tuition themselves. I have no real opinion on that idea, or any idea how effective it would be, so I'll say nothing more.

I reimburse my child per a formula: A = 100%, B = 80%, C = 60%, etc. 4.0 GPA = 120% (hasn't happened). I will happily pay for everything, a full ride, as a parent or a taxpayer, if the student does the work.

You've just disincentivized your child to take organic chemistry.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#363

Post by ReinholdNiebuhr »

aplummer wrote: post #347
ReinholdNiebuhr wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to lean libertarian, so that's my bias. I'll be upfront with that. That said, I'd be okay eliminating student loans both in government and even in private markets. Like private personal loans take over. I think it would work out over time. I can't speak for the overall society, but I know personally I noticed locally amongst friends and family that when student loans became more widespread under Obama local pr…

This would exclude so many smart kids from college. People who work a ton of jobs but support disabled family members for example. > “it seems any way you cut it people are going to get thrown under the bus.” Incorrect, every other western country at least has a pretty workable system.

"people are going to get thrown under the bus", can include rich being over taxed to pay for free college for the masses. My statement was meant to be broad in that someone is going to get screwed, rich or poor.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#364

Post by Fomite »

cloakandswagger wrote: post #63
umbrellathorn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for a useless degree they'll never use I went to school for such a degree. While I don't use it in my day to day now, I still consider it priceless. There's some inherent value added to a person who pursues to study a bit of humanities, history, philosophy and art in college apart from their major. Scholarly work really helps shape the way you look at life for the better. Part of this is that you really understand…

> We have too many people thinking it's okay to discredit scientists and scholars because they don't understand how research works. And a similar number of people who elevate science to the level of religion, marching in its name and developing a brand of hero worship for scientists when they too know nothing at all about the scientific process. Both are forms of anti-intellectualism that are growing in our polarized…

One thing I noticed going to a major conference in my academic field last year (IDWeek for those interested). Each and every one of the plenary speakers had some reference in their talks that betrayed a classic liberal arts education.

The titans of a scientific field still valued arts, and history, and culture. And derived value from it.

Hell, I'm a working scientist and one of the most valuable classes I ever had for thinking about the world was a feminist art history class.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#365

Post by ordinaryradical »

rjbwork wrote: post #214
vec wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but isn't that also the "problem" with subsidizing K-12 public school? One doesn't need a high school education to wait tables or stock shelves, and most apprenticeships and trade schools could probably be started several years earlier without issue. We used to have this Enlightenment ideal of a Liberal Arts Education. It served as job training, sure, but it also tried to make its recipients better citizens and…

Was just talking with my boss about how they do it in Germany. Essentially they do heavy tracking, if you can't cut it in the college track, you get put into blue collar training and apprentice programs. This is why they are such an industrial powerhouse still - they have a well prepared white collar and blue collar work force.

This is only functional if you have an equitable education system in K-12 that allows every child the preparation necessary to reach their potential. Speaking as the spouse of someone who's worked for a decade in urban education, we are very far from that reality.

Conceptually, it's nice to imagine a purely meritocratic system wherein everyone may ascertain the level of potential they desire, but the US is living through the hangover of centuries of systemic racism.

The only way this tracked solution could be truly fair is if access to education was universally available and equitable; in our current reality, what it actually would mean is that those who can afford the best education in K-12 will be highly over-represented in the college track and those who cannot will be under-represented.

So in the end it turns out to be an anti-meritocratic solution.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#366

Post by Fomite »

smallnamespace wrote: post #84
cloakandswagger wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have too many people thinking it's okay to discredit scientists and scholars because they don't understand how research works. And a similar number of people who elevate science to the level of religion, marching in its name and developing a brand of hero worship for scientists when they too know nothing at all about the scientific process. Both are forms of anti-intellectualism that are growing in our polarized…

I've seen this form of scientism playing out frequently on Reddit and other Internet forums lately. Discussion will be about some piece of controversial research, e.g. GMOs or vaccines. People who want to discuss the merits of the research are shouted down by what I can only describe as 'science fanbois' -- anything that is 'against science' must be wrong. They're missing the inherent tension in science between a rec…

It's always fascinating to me how little some of these people understand science. There was a forum I frequented where there was a prolific "scientism" poster, and pretty much every time several of the working scientists on the site, myself included, were like "Um...that's not how this works."

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#367

Post by tonysdg »

OliverJones wrote: post #262
nsporillo wrote: post #58

As a current student and one who will graduate with roughly $60k in student debt, after scholarships and grants - I often question the legitimacy of the driving factors in increased tuition. Most would say the volume of administrators has ballooned due to the increasing number of services universities now provide for the students. Better and more services offered to students should benefit quality of life. Does the e…

The article mentions "loose student loan underwriting standards." Here's what's going on: The people originating the loans have no skin in the game. So, they don't call NYU or even Northern Essex Community College and say, "look, here's a student who wants to be a social worker, asking for 100K in loans to get the degree. We don't think they'll be able to repay that debt on a social worker's wages. So, no loan." If t…

To my understanding, the problem is that when the lenders WERE calling colleges, it wasn't to say "this kid wants to borrow 100k in loans", it was to say "here's 50k in goodies, send your students to us for loans!". Hence the controversies over kickbacks and the like.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#368

Post by Fomite »

chriskanan wrote: post #100
umbrellathorn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for a useless degree they'll never use I went to school for such a degree. While I don't use it in my day to day now, I still consider it priceless. There's some inherent value added to a person who pursues to study a bit of humanities, history, philosophy and art in college apart from their major. Scholarly work really helps shape the way you look at life for the better. Part of this is that you really understand…

While I agree that one can gain a great deal of enrichment from studying non-lucrative majors, I think people should highly consider double majoring in this case. I majored in computer science AND philosophy as an undergraduate. Doing both took under 5 years. I think a lot of people don't realize how little they will earn with their degrees compared to how high their debt load will be. That's not including people who…

My alma mater required engineering students to take a reasonable amount of credits in something other than engineering. Enough to be close to a minor, but more flexible.

I always thought this was an excellent idea.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#369

Post by goldfeld »

Paul-ish wrote: post #322
lrem wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries provide free (you don't even have to buy overpriced books or any other scam) education on all levels (including PhD). Even the middling ones like Poland. You simply estimate your rough requirements for different specialties and fund that many students. Admissions can become somewhat cutthroat (50 applicants per slot are not unheard of), but that only works for the better.

> Admissions can become somewhat cutthroat This is what I've heard about a lot of places that provide good higher education. I would be concerned in the US that college readiness correlates a little bit too closely to familial wealth.

That's why you'd have the usual frat jocks as opposed to third-world public admissions where everyone ought to be dedicated.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#370

Post by Fomite »

ReinholdNiebuhr wrote: post #363
aplummer wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would exclude so many smart kids from college. People who work a ton of jobs but support disabled family members for example. > “it seems any way you cut it people are going to get thrown under the bus.” Incorrect, every other western country at least has a pretty workable system.

"people are going to get thrown under the bus", can include rich being over taxed to pay for free college for the masses. My statement was meant to be broad in that someone is going to get screwed, rich or poor.

The thing is the magnitudes are different. Calling them both "getting thrown under the bus" suggests they're equivalent.

The rich (myself included in that statement) are doing just fine, and could shoulder a little more without major setbacks. The poor are already dealing with a system that is bringing social mobility to a halt.

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