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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#361

Post by peteretep »

jacquesm wrote: post #360
peteretep wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't sure at first, but now I think you're being actively dishonest to try and ...? Who knows. > Selective service is a back-up plan that has not been > used Right. Except for WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam, which drafted collectively 15m people, when has it ever been used? Either you knew that, and lied, or you didn't know that, and decided to speak authoritively on the point anyway. It would have taken you 10 seco…

> I wasn't sure at first, but now I think you're being actively dishonest to try and ...? Who knows. That's all in your mind I'm afraid. > Right. Except for WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam, which drafted collectively 15m people, when has it ever been used? Yes, they were drafted. And since then the draft has been abolished and the US is at present operating an all volunteer force. Nobody got drafted into Iraq or Afghanis…

    >>> Selective service is a back-up plan that has not been
    >>> used

    >> Except for WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam

    > Yes, they were drafted
That's because Selective Service "is a back-up plan that has not been used" is a falsehood.

    > And since then the draft has been abolished
"the draft" has not been abolished any more than "war is over". The specific drafts for each conflict are finished because the conflicts are finished. The US retains the right to draft its citizens in law, and it (in contrast to many other states) actively maintains a whole government agency just for that, and remains the right to prosecute - to this day - 18 year old men who don't sign up. In more than half of US States, when you get a driving license, you are registered explicitly as eligible for military service.

    > Nobody got drafted into Iraq or Afghanistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-loss_policy

    > If you feel that these other things are already below that
Do I think your country compelling you to kill people is lower than your country compelling you to patch a binary? I guess I do, on account of not being deranged.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#362

Post by jacquesm »

peteretep wrote: post #361
jacquesm wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wasn't sure at first, but now I think you're being actively dishonest to try and ...? Who knows. That's all in your mind I'm afraid. > Right. Except for WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam, which drafted collectively 15m people, when has it ever been used? Yes, they were drafted. And since then the draft has been abolished and the US is at present operating an all volunteer force. Nobody got drafted into Iraq or Afghanis…

>>> Selective service is a back-up plan that has not been >>> used >> Except for WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam > Yes, they were drafted That's because Selective Service "is a back-up plan that has not been used" is a falsehood. > And since then the draft has been abolished "the draft" has not been abolished any more than "war is over". The specific drafts for each conflict are finished because the conflicts are finishe…

My country can no more compel me to kill people than that it can compel me to write software.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#363

Post by s_q_b »

madaxe_again wrote: post #330
s_q_b wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the world recognizes the Guy Fawkes mask as the symbol of Anonymous now. In fact, I'd say the Nov. 5 plot immortalized his ideas and spread them far wider than their original audience and circumstance. I'd say the gunpowder treason is far from being forgot.

Ah, but do you remember "Burn him in a tub of tar, burn him like a blazing star, burn his body from his head, then we'll say ol' pope is dead, hurrah hurrah hurrah"? Everything is viewed through the lens of relativism, of course, but history has repeatedly shown that great men are viewed as villains, villains as great men, and very little of what you "know" is in any way actual. This reality is as fabricated as a fil…

I remember him, and his goals. (Guy Fawkes may not have been the best example.)

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#364

Post by Zigurd »

chiph wrote: post #277
cubano wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your nativity on how "criminal justice" and law enforcement works is kinda astounding to me. If a judge orders an injunction against these citizens and they don't comply, he won't fine them, he will jail them, which is an incredible hardship, esp. against people not used to the prison industrial complex and its dehumanizing effects. Perhaps sitting in jail for weeks or months will endure these guys to the IT masses a…

I think he meant Apple will be fined. The engineers, if directly ordered by the court to "fix" [0] the software will be charged with contempt of court, and jailed. [1] I mean this in the sense of to deal with or correct a problem, and also to influence the result by improper or illegal methods

That's when it gets interesting.

Creating code is not like being compelled to testify. Is the DoJ going to have a prosecutor ask them "Now what would be the next line of code?" until they get a working tool?

The coders have an excellent case against them being jailed. The government has already stated their fallback position - that they want Apple's source code and signing keys. Apple will probably at that point secure their signing keys and code, perhaps by moving them offshore.

It will be interesting to see if some defense contractor can make head or tail of Apple's code, build system, etc. That could be a comedy I'd pay to watch.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#365

Post by Zigurd »

da1 wrote: post #219
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

This is actually very simple. The state can just harass them into compliance. Tools at the state's disposal include but are not limited to: #Legal: * Judge orders them to comply, if they refuse they can be considered to be in contempt and incarcerated for a de facto arbitrary period of time at the judge's discretion (vide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._Beatty_Chadwick incarcerated for contempt for 14 years just bec…

> The state can just harass them into compliance.

If that were actually implementable against large powerful corporations universally, we would not have had a bailout after the derivatives bomb. As it is, not even the ratings agencies got nicked.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#366

Post by Zigurd »

rbobby wrote: post #313

Meh. The FBI has already suggested that it might request the code signing certificate and the full source tree. With those in hand, I'd expect the NSA programmers could get this done in a few months.

> With those in hand, I'd expect the NSA programmers could get this done in a few months.

The NSA increasingly is not a room full of mathematicians, but an IT outsourcing customer. But in neither case would they be very competent at creating a variant of iOS that doesn't touch flash memory and enables brute-forcing the PIN.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#367

Post by marssaxman »

kelseydh wrote: post #295
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its core, the government can enforce arbitrary declarations because they have the ability to use force against those who don't comply - ie; they control the prisons, the police and the armies. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong

As Max Weber would say, the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical violence.

Some governments may claim such a monopoly, but in the most parts of the USA, at least, private citizens have not completely delegated their right of self-defence through physical violence.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#368

Post by Bluestrike2 »

jnbiche wrote: post #355
Bluestrike2 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually a separate, but related, issue. Right now, the courts are weighing whether the FBI can force the creation of a modified OS largely because (a) it's possible to do so with how existing iPhones are engineered, and (b) it wouldn't drastically inconvenience Apple to do so in light of their resources. If they get a favorable ruling, they have a precedent they'll try and use to gain access to other phones i…

You're right, I mispoke.

No worries. But I do think you're right, that sort of situation would absolutely be a long-term dream for the government. When companies take steps to further lock down their devices, there's probably a pretty decent chance that someone is going to get a very not-so-bright idea and try to run with it.

I don't think it'd succeed for the reasons above, but when the alternative is nothing, dumb ideas can look awfully good to people at first. If there's one thing that's come out of all the publicity over the FBI's request, it's that every criminal and terrorist in the world now knows to turn off their iCloud backups. It was obvious before, but never so publicized. Oops? Unintended consequences.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#369

Post by chiph »

Zigurd wrote: post #364
chiph wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he meant Apple will be fined. The engineers, if directly ordered by the court to "fix" [0] the software will be charged with contempt of court, and jailed. [1] I mean this in the sense of to deal with or correct a problem, and also to influence the result by improper or illegal methods

That's when it gets interesting. Creating code is not like being compelled to testify. Is the DoJ going to have a prosecutor ask them "Now what would be the next line of code?" until they get a working tool? The coders have an excellent case against them being jailed. The government has already stated their fallback position - that they want Apple's source code and signing keys. Apple will probably at that point secu…

The developers need to talk to their own lawyer about the future. If they stay at Apple, the firm might pay for their legal costs. But if they leave, they'll have to pay their lawyers themselves. Even if someone like the EFF comes in to defend them pro-bono, they're going to be out of work and un-hireable (no company is going to take on that potential liability).

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#370

Post by choosername »

studentrob wrote: post #220
gaur wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contact your representatives and let them know you care. Unless you have a lot of money, your representatives don't care. It seems like the only way to make progress is to support stronger encryption, with less of a possibility of engineering backdoors.

You may enjoy This American Life's episode on "Take the Money and Run for Office" [1] > Dick Durbin: I think most Americans would be shocked-- not surprised, but shocked-- if they knew how much time a United States senator spends raising money. And how much time we spend talking about raising money, and thinking about raising money, and planning to raise money. And, you know, going off on little retreats and conjurin…

If that's not a propaganda piece, it's still anecdotal.
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