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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#351

Post by jrochkind1 »

bluehat wrote: post #326
geofft wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's a particular reason to believe this is significantly worse in tech than it is elsewhere (although if this I'm wrong, I'd definitely appreciate being corrected on this). But there are a few things I'd say: - Tech has this particular weird cultural self-view that we all see ourselves and each other as middle-school nerds emerging victorious, as people who got past the bullies and the ills of "norm…

It's gone :/

Ironically, while google web search _thinks_ it has that URL in it's cache... the google cache is completely unable to quote with the JS-heavy Google Plus, so it isn't.

But I guess the author took it down on purpose. It is not hard to guess why, based on the nature of _this_ comment thread.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#352

Post by joe_the_user »

emj wrote: post #297
joe_the_user wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? -- I have no objections to saying "his sexual harassment and manipulation was worse than physical rape". I'm wholly on the side of using every means possible to stop both rape and sexual harassment in the workplace and punishing people severely for both. I'm even all in favor of punishing t…

You are not really helping the issue, you are doing that "I support you, but you are so wrong". The whole "outside observer" smells like slut shaming to me. The article talkings about how to make the social environment in tech better, the clinical definition of rape is not the issue.

you are doing that "I support you, but you are so wrong".

I sure am.

What is the problem with that? People who have been victimized sometimes say things that are incorrect. Pretending that everything someone who has been victimized says is factually correct and credible seems is totally counter-productive, makes all rational dialog impossible and ultimately allows the strongest to impose their version of events since it produces a situation where no one cares about the facts of a situation.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#353

Post by imaginenore »

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

And, more importantly, why nobody ever calls the police and sues the guy for physical and emotional damages.

That part of the story sounds made up.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#354

Post by hrktb »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #259
jobposter1234 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is sex somehow fundamentally different than every* other act that it should be treated so differently? * Every. If I used my power at work to make you eat a literal lunch of feces, is that more or less egregious? I know what my gut would say, but why? Isn't the core bad behavior the concept of abrogating another human's free will? Why is sex in this other classification? Edit: put another way, why is it that being co…

Sure, that would be fucked up, wouldn't it? Fortunately, we don't have too much of a problem with some people forcing other people to eat feces, in the workplace or elsewhere. Or with people scared to complain about their bosses making them eat shit, for fear of ruining their career. We do have a pretty big problem with sexual violence, sexual coercion, and gender-based discrimination, in the workplace and elsewhere.…

Making people eat shit feels very far removed from reality. Putting someone on an empty desk facing a wall and give them menial tasks for years is way more life crushing and actually happens.

People are not disingenious nor delusional when saying that as there is rape, there is also mamy other abuses towards people of both sex, and discussing how these happen, how you can get trapped, and should be aware of these situation is valid.

The problem is really to get rid of situation where the balance of power gets so crushing that you are coerced into getting thinhs done to you that you damages you.

Is it better to focus on each single case and find a specific defense ? or can there be a more universal way of doing it ?

I think the problem is really not centered on the sex of the victim, and more on the crushing power and social impunity of the aggressor. Working on that side of the equation would bring improvement for our society as a whole.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#355

Post by brohee »

mrbig4545 wrote: post #29

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

Sexual offenders tend to have lots of victims, so victims are likely clustered around them.

A workplace with one must have quite a few victims, a workplace without one is full of people that never heard anything like this.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#356

Post by imaginenore »

kendallpark wrote: post #160

Every time an article like this gets posted, ignorant commenters pretty much prove the thesis of the article. So far I have learned from HN commenters: - a hetero male would never give a BJ to a superior male no matter what therefore it is hard to understand why a woman would feel coerced into do so. - It is not possible/credible for a woman to be raped multiple times by a coworker. - It is the clearly the woman's fa…

Writing whiny articles is counterproductive. A rapist is not going to read it and think - "Uh oh, turns our rape is bad, I should stop".

If there's some abuse/assault/rape, you deal with it like in any other field - you call the police, and then you press charges, and then you sue. It's the only thing that really stops the abusers/rapists.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#357

Post by joe_the_user »

pekk wrote: post #344
abalone wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody argued that that isn't rape, but that's because you've folded in what sounds like a physical threat. "Kick you out right now and you can live on the street" sounds more violent than "have sex with me or I initiate divorce proceedings". The question is whether there's a distinction between economic coercion and rape. rayiner argues no, it's just as coercive as "pulling a knife", but most state laws (I believe)…

What I'm asking is: what is the point of trying to argue that certain kinds of coerced sex are not rape? I wonder why HN is so sensitive to this line of questioning that they want to censor it outright. Are people emotionally attached to using certain forms of coercion to get sex, while thinking that it's okay or "not rape" because they aren't holding a knife?

"What I'm asking is: what is the point of trying to argue that certain kinds of coerced sex are not rape?"

The point is that if start using a definition outside the standard definition, you tend to lose the trust of an outside observer.

Suppose someone wants to determine what happened in a given set of circumstances. If a person says, "He did X to me under Y conditions" and the observer comes back with "but Y conditions would seem to make X rather difficult" and the original person says "well, I have different definition of X", the observer instantly feels like the credibility of the person has decreased.

If a person gives a pretty unambiguous description of events, their credibility tends to be high. If a person's story is going to be widely believe, believed in a court of law and so-forth, we want their credibility to be high.

I think I can understand emotional appeal of the argument that the victim shouldn't be under scrutiny and shouldn't have to prove her case. But, I'm sorry, reality can't work that way - any system that discards investigation into truth will instead wind up with the truth suiting those having the most power and that only guarantees more victimization on one level or another.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#358

Post by brohee »

BrassBody wrote: post #348

I'm willing to put $10,000 into escrow as a bet that this is all made up for attention. The OP is just a feminist propaganda spreading troublemaker. Put your money where your mouth is. You produce proof, I pay you $10,000.

The DefCon "show us your tits" incident is pretty well documented...

Feel free to donate the money to RAINN (https://www.rainn.org/)

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#359

Post by natmaster »

jusben1369 wrote: post #340
bluehat wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to do something more with my life than make sure some asshole gets what they deserve. I want my life to be about more than that.

One way I think males can better relate is to consider bullying. There'd be no bullying in school if every single time it happened a child went to the authorities, was taken seriously, the perpetrator was punished and there was no backlash on the victim. Yet we know that many kids put up with a fair degree of bullying because going to the Principal completely changes the game. They fear overt or subtle retribution an…

So you should just accept it?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#360

Post by jusben1369 »

natmaster wrote: post #359
jusben1369 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way I think males can better relate is to consider bullying. There'd be no bullying in school if every single time it happened a child went to the authorities, was taken seriously, the perpetrator was punished and there was no backlash on the victim. Yet we know that many kids put up with a fair degree of bullying because going to the Principal completely changes the game. They fear overt or subtle retribution an…

So you should just accept it?

This is a complex situation made up of multiple inputs that in turn denies you the simply answer you wish for.
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