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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

latimes.com

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#351

Post by ses1984 »

hedora wrote: post #250
scarmig wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That mistakes the point of education. Schools do not exist to fix every social problem, and demanding they treat fixing every social problem as their number one priority is how we got into this mess of "teach nothing but make sure everyone passes" in the first place.

Yes, but back when California was poorer, it had some of the best schools in the nation. Now that it's richer, the schools are collapsing, so it's really hard to argue that systematic social problems are the root cause.

The only thing that changed is that California got richer, and it just so happens that wealth was evenly distributed.

How convenient.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#352

Post by elteto »

9dev wrote: post #146
elteto wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following your analogy, what equity efforts turn in practice is to not only accommodate for track length for those that start behind, but also to cut one leg off of those perceived to be ahead.

My point wasn't that every existing equity effort is justified and flawless, but that there is a clear reason why some kind of levelling is required if you want to live in a fair society - and I do believe most of us want that.

It's funny you mention fair, because to me a fair society is one where smart kids are not penalized for being so.

So yes, we all want fair, but what we think of as fair can be wildly different.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#353

Post by iamkrazy »

121789 wrote: post #302
hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

I think you have equity and equality exactly reversed

No he hasn't.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#354

Post by Bratmon »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #344
CGMthrowaway wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your issue with redirecting funding from sucky schools towards ones that deliver results, while allowing school choice for students at the same time? I may be naive but that sounds fairly good

Charter schools deliver results the same way that private schools deliver results: selection bias. It's really easy to have good outcomes when you have the ability to curate your student population. And though charter schools are regulated to make it harder for them to curate their student population, the statistical evidence is pretty unequivocal: they serve different populations than public schools, and their "bett…

Unpopular opinion: If we have evidence that shows that keeping all the smart kids in one group creates massively better outcomes for that group, then that's something we should be doing everywhere, not something we should ban.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#355

Post by hedora »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #291
hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

Give the money to the parents in the form of income-adjusted vouchers to spend on education as they see fit.

That creates a market for lemons.

How does a parent (especially one that is illiterate) compare between educational opportunities for their kids?

The status quo says that the schools do not measure outcomes (and when they do, they do not publish it, or publish it on a long delay), so any objective data parents could use is not available.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#356

Post by wagwang »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #314
Catloafdev wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurdly problematic. Your solution is basically handicapping the schools with kids that perform worse and then potentially closing them? That doesn't solve the problem, this is just pro-Charter School propaganda that ignores the real-world effects of these positions. You've identified a real issue with the 'equality' vs 'equity' concept, that doesn't lead to 'Close public schools and switch everything to Cha…

It's funnier because it's old, failed policy that they are recycling without being aware of it because they are ignorant. All old things really do become new again.

It's the current set of policy that is failing. All literacy and math score are down across the entire country and theyve been going down for the past 10 years.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#357

Post by u1hcw9nx »

If STEM degrees produce low quality graduates, the value of degree decreases:

1. Employers must add more math testing before hiring to see that they get what they need.

2. Wages drop to with match the knowledge and skill. Become prompt engineer $25/h no permanent job.

3. Immigrants to the rescue!

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#358

Post by zozbot234 »

julianeon wrote: post #143
hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

> Personally, I think all funding in California education (other than terminal levels like 4 year bachelors and up) should be a function of the percentage of students that succeed at the next step. This has the unintended consequence of encouraging schools to eject students who are struggling. For example, if the student has a learning disability, declare that it's too serious for them to handle, and then transfer th…

> This has the unintended consequence of encouraging schools to eject students who are struggling. For example, if the student has a learning disability, declare that it's too serious for them to handle, and then transfer them to a school that theoretically can.

Most struggling students are not special ed. It's a serious mistake to conflate the two. In some ways special ed students are taken better care of than the typical remedial student, since training for special ed happens to focus on effective instructional methods (such as direct instruction) that are actively deplored by most progressive educators as "demeaning" towards their profession.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#359

Post by hedora »

z3c0 wrote: post #220
avidiax wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a "fair" outcome? Is it easier to hold back talented students with a low bar or push untalented ones to a higher bar?

The conundrum of "equality of outcome" vs "equality of opportunity" hinges on that core question. It's weird, and possible contradictory, to see a policy claiming to attempt both. Most would define a "fair" opportunity as everyone getting the same chances to succeed, but a "fair" outcome would segment on merit. If angling towards fair outcomes, there's usually less uproar over lifting the floor (e.g financial aid), v…

A much better policy would be to raise the floor and not pay attention to equality of outcome.

If the worst school in 2036 California is better than the average school in 2026, then that's an obvious win.

(That goal is completely achievable -- only about a third of California students are grade-level proficient right now.)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#360

Post by dabluecaboose »

hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

> This solves the problem of trying to use this as a curriculum back door for climate denial and Islamophobia (or whatever the red states are pushing).

Well, my red state public school taught me calculus, algebra, and evolution without making the claim that knowledge is somehow racist. So maybe those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones

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