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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#351

Post by Apocryphon »

xeromal wrote: post #263
credit_guy wrote: post #169

I know this is not related to the legal merits of the case being discussed, but who runs a red light? In my experience, this is an infarction that occurs very infrequently. Speeding or illegal parking happen all the time, but running a red light? Most people are not suicidal. Edit: Nevermind, I think crossing on yellow and catching a tenth of a second of red counts as running a red light. If it does, it’s something I…

This is a silly example but in Los Angeles, there are hardly any protected left hand turns so the standard behavior is to wait for the light to turn red and two cars proceed before the next traffic group continues. Police even do this.

San Francisco also has a good number of unprotected left turns. Cities are just asking for trouble.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#352

Post by sejje »

Larrikin wrote: post #330
sejje wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully other states don't follow this pattern; I don't think the government should be installing surveillance arrays, even if it's "for the children" or public safety. Trading a little liberty for a little safety and all that.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

I have noticed a severe uptick in bad semi-truck drivers on the interstate since COVID, I'll agree at least with that part.

The local cops here have always just run plates for stolen vehicles. Getting a ticket is almost unheard of. I don't know what their deal is, but you can speed right past them in the other lane, or if they're just parked on the corner.

I'm guessing you still can't pass them on a two-lane road without poking their ego.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#353

Post by maxerickson »

observationist wrote: post #335
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

Or maybe not have automated surveillance robonannies playing gotcha games and pocketing money, often impacting those who can least afford it, over technicalities and arbitrary rules made up to benefit the people doing the collecting. The idea that AI enforcement won't be just as corrupt and capricious as any other form of government run extortion is bonkers. You're talking systems with less oversight than openclaw be…

I'm furious that 10% of my federal income taxes end up going to California's bullshit, I can't imagine what it would be like having to live there.

Your taxes getting evenly distributed is one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that removing California from the US would either increase your taxes or require reductions in federal spending.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#354

Post by iamnothere »

californical wrote: post #288
xeromal wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that just?

Yes, vehicle ownership is a level of responsibility, I believe it is just to be accountable for what happens with it.

This is unjust BS and discriminates against poor families.

Using this line of thinking, it will be a short time until you’re responsible for what a criminal does with your stolen vehicle; after all, you failed to secure it.

I hope you get exactly what you’re asking for, and all the implications thereof (but in a state far from me). I feel certain you won’t enjoy it.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#355

Post by SteveNuts »

Larrikin wrote: post #330
sejje wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully other states don't follow this pattern; I don't think the government should be installing surveillance arrays, even if it's "for the children" or public safety. Trading a little liberty for a little safety and all that.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

I am constantly amazed at how many people blatantly run red lights now. It used to be that people would sometimes press their luck on a yellow a little bit, but now it'll be red for several seconds and people will still just drive right on through.

I'd love if the police enforced this insanely dangerous behavior instead of trying to catch people going 10 over on the highway.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#356

Post by senordevnyc »

hamdingers wrote: post #304
sowbug wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

Sure. Then the bill requires that all those fines you pay go towards street calming infrastructure, eventually making it physically impossible (or at least very uncomfortable) for you to continue speeding. Kind of like if enough parents paid the late pickup fee, eventually the daycare could afford a van for dropoffs.

It seems like this rarely happens. The fines become another stream of income, and reliance on that income kills any incentive to fully eliminate the behavior the fines are ostensibly meant to discourage.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#357

Post by filoleg »

burningChrome wrote: post #249
SunshineTheCat wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed a few cases surrounding traffic cameras that have been ruled unconstitutional on the grounds that individuals have the right to face their accuser. The question in those cases came down to if the operators of the cam can be considered "accusers." They widely considered that of course the cam itself didn't count as an accuser, but the question was how "automated" the system was. If there was a human who…

They started putting them up in the midwest where I live. The interesting thing is if you get a ticket and just pay it? Nothing. If you get a ticket and you challenge it, the judge will immediately throw it out for the reason you pointed out or just dismiss it before it even gets to court by sending out a form letter saying they nullified the ticket, no reason to pay it. So in essence, if you know this is what they'r…

I don't have much meaningful info to contribute to this, but it is interesting to observe how the rollout of the red light cams happens in different places, and how it eventually turns out.

IIRC there was a point in time roughly around ~2017 when it happened in Redmond WA (i.e., in the town that the Microsoft HQ is in). I might be off by a year or two, but it doesn't really change the overall point.

TLDR: in under 2 years, that whole red light cam initiative got canceled and reverted, because the local stats showed that it just made things more dangerous on the roads (by significantly increasing the rate of rear-ending accidents at traffic lights).

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#358

Post by NetMageSCW »

multjoy wrote: post #165
cromka wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so now write a law that makes a distinction here. What do you end up with? EU law.

The EU does not write traffic legislation, it leaves that up to the individual states. Unlike the US, the EU is a collection of fully sovereign countries.

“fully” is optimistic - being a member of the EU means giving up some sovereignty.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#359

Post by qingcharles »

SunshineTheCat wrote: post #239
fusslo wrote: post #198

After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure. Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered…

I've followed a few cases surrounding traffic cameras that have been ruled unconstitutional on the grounds that individuals have the right to face their accuser. The question in those cases came down to if the operators of the cam can be considered "accusers." They widely considered that of course the cam itself didn't count as an accuser, but the question was how "automated" the system was. If there was a human who…

Couldn't you say the same of drug testing spectrometers etc? The end operator of the equipment has to appear in court to testify to the proper operation of the machine. [0]

[0] Unless the defendant waives that right and stipulates to the prosecutor's statement about the machine.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#360

Post by [deleted] »

kamarg wrote: post #177
stronglikedan wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's by design, and that's a good thing. Anything where the person actually driving the car can't be identified (i.e., tickets given by camera as opposed to in-person) shouldn't have any long term affect on anyone's personal records.

If you can't tell who was driving, you shouldn't be sending anyone a ticket.

[deleted]
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