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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#161

Post by ratelimitsteve »

cromka wrote: post #10
embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

Not the same. They know the car was yours so, by extension, you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment. If it wasn't you driving, you know who. An illegal activity was committed using your tool and you know who did it. They have every right to question you. If you do not know, you testify as such, but then again you need to plausibly explain why was someone operating your car while you were not aware…

> If it wasn't you driving, you know who.

I don't have to prove who was driving. I don't have to prove I wasn't the one driving. The state has to prove that I was the one driving.

>If someone shoots a person with your gun, you gonna say it wasn't you and expect them not to question any you further?

I don't expect them not to question me further and that's not what this is about. This is about whether your car running a red light is proof, in and of itself absent any other facts, that you ran a red light in your car.

>This is how it works in Poland

This is not how it works in the US

>I assume, most/all of EU and the rest of the world.

You assume incorrectly

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#162

Post by multjoy »

hypeatei wrote: post #136
izacus wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you pay the ticket yourself or ask the family who did it so they can do it. This is normal across the world and really isn't a stretch to expect vehicle owners to figure out who's been driving dangerously with their car.

> This is normal across the world I'm not arguing it isn't, but the thought exercise is: does it make sense for the government to take people's money if the accused can't prove it wasn't them driving the car based on a police accusation (also with the threat of jail time if you don't pay)? I don't think that's "normal", personally.

No, because in a functioning legislature the offence would be something like 'failing to disclose details', in the same way that refusing to participate in a DUI breath/blood draw would be a discrete offence.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#163

Post by wat10000 »

true_religion wrote: post #13
californical wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point, but these are civil tickets rather than criminal charges. And since there’s already many laws and regulations around owning a car, such as registration… isn’t it trivial to say “you are responsible for a car that you register by default” In the same way, if your car fails emissions tests, you can’t register it and it’s the responsibility of the owner to ensure that their car meets emissions standard…

But the risks that running a red light pose aren’t civil in nature, so it feels like a perversion to use civil infractions as an excuse to get sloppy with enforcement.

The alternative would be an actual criminal record because you misjudged a yellow light.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#164

Post by [deleted] »

elteto wrote: post #68
cromka wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same. They know the car was yours so, by extension, you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment. If it wasn't you driving, you know who. An illegal activity was committed using your tool and you know who did it. They have every right to question you. If you do not know, you testify as such, but then again you need to plausibly explain why was someone operating your car while you were not aware…

You don't need to explain anything to the government, that's why we have the 5th amendment. It is the government's job to bring charges against you and prove them beyond reasonable doubt. The government is right to investigate and ask questions to accomplish that and I am right to refuse to answer anything. It's basically "innocent until proven guilty". Red light cameras turn that assumption around since if your car…

[deleted]

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#165

Post by multjoy »

cromka wrote: post #57
bluefirebrand wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone shot a person with your gun, you gonna say it wasn't you and expect them not to question you further Running a red light is not remotely equivalent to shooting someone with a gun, get a grip

OK, so now write a law that makes a distinction here. What do you end up with? EU law.

The EU does not write traffic legislation, it leaves that up to the individual states.

Unlike the US, the EU is a collection of fully sovereign countries.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#166

Post by octernion »

SilverElfin wrote: post #159

Great. Ban speed cameras next. They’re just performative safetyism used as revenue sources or by activists on an anti car quest. But I actually suspect all of this will somehow be twisted into something neither side expects, which is mass surveillance and tech grift.

[flagged]

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#167

Post by elteto »

throwaheyy wrote: post #30
0x3f wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the right to question, but I don't have to testify to anything, that's what the fifth ammendment is for. As usual, Europe doesn't care about internal consistency when it comes to rights. They just legislate (or rule) whatever 'works' for the current definition of 'works'. > If someone shot a person with your gun, you gonna say it wasn't you and expect them not to question you further? Not very no-brainer, i…

It’s a very typically American opinion to argue that you don’t have to be personally responsible for your actions if the law legally allows you not to.

How very typical of non-Americans to misrepresent Americans!

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#168

Post by IncreasePosts »

brigade wrote: post #148
cromka wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need to explain anything to the government, that's why we have the 5th amendment. As someone else said, this only works against self-incrimination? If you say it wasn't you then you need to testify or get prosecuted?

First, you have the right to say nothing at all; there is no requirement to incriminate someone else to protect yourself. Second, you can still generally invoke the 5th amendment during testimony even if you already claimed someone else did it. You aren't under oath until said testimony, so it still protects against you having to choose between committing perjury or self-incrimination, and doing so cannot be used as…

No, you don't always have the right to say nothing at all. Courts can compel testimony and punish you if you don't.

And you plead the 5th after going under oath. And you can't just plead the 5th to any question. If the prosection puts you under oath and asks you your name, you can't plead the 5th to that

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#169

Post by credit_guy »

I know this is not related to the legal merits of the case being discussed, but who runs a red light? In my experience, this is an infarction that occurs very infrequently. Speeding or illegal parking happen all the time, but running a red light? Most people are not suicidal.

Edit: Nevermind, I think crossing on yellow and catching a tenth of a second of red counts as running a red light. If it does, it’s something I did myself a few times (of course, all in the distant past, the statute of limitations has pased now …)

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#170

Post by riquito »

dolni wrote: post #51
spullara wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not required to know who is driving their registered vehicle at all times, just that anyone that is allowed to drive it has a license.

What are some scenarios where a vehicle owner knows that the vehicle is being driven by someone with a license, but not who that person is?

Happens all the time. You and your spouse do the same or similar route (e.g. bring child to school) and a month later you get a ticket. Who was driving that day?
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