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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#351

Post by dijit »

vander_elst wrote: post #348

Honest question, how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware? Context: I use a MacBook at work and a Lenovo with Linux at home and now I might need to change my personal laptop, but I struggle to find (hardware) reasons why not to buy a MacBook, a MacBook Air is actually cheaper than another laptops with similar specs. There's still the ideology of repairability and openness which still plays…

CPUs are the main reason.

They’re about 1-1.5 generations ahead of AMDs mobile offering, and OEMs have sweetheart deals with Intel, which is more like 4-5 generations behind.

So flagship business laptops (which are the only comparable laptops in terms of build quality to Macbooks) are hamstrung, and everything else is built like a matchbox even with AMD cpus.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#352

Post by typpilol »

fizwidget wrote: post #171
worble wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - boot times are less than a minute so it really isn't a issue for me, just flick the power switch, wait for a bit then I'm good to go.

“Less than a minute” is going to feel horribly slow to people that are used to instant-resume and not having to think about shutdown vs. sleep. You might be okay with it, but I suspect most consumers today won’t be.

Not to mention open apps

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#353

Post by yehat »

trinsic2 wrote: post #322
mjrpes wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just laptops but affects computers too. I have a brand-new Mini PC with Windows 11 and when you turn it "off" it continues to pull 6-10 watts. Not a lot but still over a year if you were to only used it minimally that's 52-83kwh or around $25-45/year at PG&E rates. Vendors are removing support for classic standby/hibernate so the only way to go to <1 watt is to pull the plug. It shouldn't be this way.

Anybody know why their so hell bent on removing S3?

My thinking is that Microsoft is basically the most influential in that, as they badly want to do their "stuff" while the laptop is not in use. Their "stuff" requires network connectivity and seemingly they believe they can do updates, or any other "optimizations" when the laptop is in "modern sleep" mode.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#354

Post by mmcnl »

dijit wrote: post #351
vander_elst wrote: post #348

Honest question, how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware? Context: I use a MacBook at work and a Lenovo with Linux at home and now I might need to change my personal laptop, but I struggle to find (hardware) reasons why not to buy a MacBook, a MacBook Air is actually cheaper than another laptops with similar specs. There's still the ideology of repairability and openness which still plays…

CPUs are the main reason. They’re about 1-1.5 generations ahead of AMDs mobile offering, and OEMs have sweetheart deals with Intel, which is more like 4-5 generations behind. So flagship business laptops (which are the only comparable laptops in terms of build quality to Macbooks) are hamstrung, and everything else is built like a matchbox even with AMD cpus.

It's everything else where MacBooks excel too. The build quality is insane, I've never seen a laptop with as little flex as a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro. The keyboards are now finally great, and the display is amazing as well. Trackpad is best in class too.

Another thing: the displays are glossy, but still not very reflective. The Windows laptops glossy displays are so much more reflective, they are unusable outside. Also something worth mentioning, the MacBook displays get really bright. A high-end OLED display hardly goes above 400 nits. A MacBook Pro can go to 600 nits and outside it goes to 1600 nits. This is the difference between being able to use a laptop outside, and not.

Durability: if you're not doing anything crazy the MacBook will look brand new even after years of usage. Notable exception is the cheap plastic key caps which degrade very quickly, a bummer.

So the MacBooks beat the competition easily from a hardware quality perspective, and we haven't even talked about the elephant in the room yet: CPU performance, battery life and fan noise, obviously Apple is even further ahead in this area.

And then price, as strange as it sounds, both the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro are cheaper than the competition.

Disclaimer: I don't own a MacBook personally because I think macOS is not great, but that's probably the only reason why I'm not buying a MacBook. I would happily pay same the price of a MacBook Pro for a similar Windows laptop if it existed. It does not. There are always compromises.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#355

Post by typpilol »

dijit wrote: post #351
vander_elst wrote: post #348

Honest question, how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware? Context: I use a MacBook at work and a Lenovo with Linux at home and now I might need to change my personal laptop, but I struggle to find (hardware) reasons why not to buy a MacBook, a MacBook Air is actually cheaper than another laptops with similar specs. There's still the ideology of repairability and openness which still plays…

CPUs are the main reason. They’re about 1-1.5 generations ahead of AMDs mobile offering, and OEMs have sweetheart deals with Intel, which is more like 4-5 generations behind. So flagship business laptops (which are the only comparable laptops in terms of build quality to Macbooks) are hamstrung, and everything else is built like a matchbox even with AMD cpus.

Doesn't Intel still win out for single thread?

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#356

Post by yoavm »

vocoda wrote: post #333
pachico wrote: post #326

I am forced to use a MacBook M4 at work but I have and love my Framework 13 Intel. Battery management is superior in MacOS but I can leave my Framework suspended for more than at least a week (I never measured how long it can stay like this). I run vanilla Ubuntu with TLP, though, which might be the trick.

What’s TLP?

https://linrunner.de/tlp/index.html

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#357

Post by dijit »

typpilol wrote: post #355
dijit wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CPUs are the main reason. They’re about 1-1.5 generations ahead of AMDs mobile offering, and OEMs have sweetheart deals with Intel, which is more like 4-5 generations behind. So flagship business laptops (which are the only comparable laptops in terms of build quality to Macbooks) are hamstrung, and everything else is built like a matchbox even with AMD cpus.

Doesn't Intel still win out for single thread?

no, and even if they did, the way they operate is “thermal and power headroom is free performance gains!” - which is a sucky philosophy with laptops, as they get hot and lose battery much quicker than they need to by constantly boosting.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#358

Post by ben-schaaf »

heavyset_go wrote: post #246
ben-schaaf wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this isn't possible on AMD unfortunately.

I'm on an AMD machine that System76 wrote the firmware for, and they specifically wrote in S3 sleep functionality despite the base firmware missing it.

Do you have a source for that? The only thing I've found is S3 sleep under coreboot, which only applies to intel.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#359

Post by yunohn »

karel-3d wrote: post #319
chatmasta wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s see how long DHH & co can keep harvesting low hanging fruit of Linux laptop problems. I’d expect they’ll plateau soon but I would love to be surprised. I’m torn between my instinct to classify anything from DHH as mostly hype, my faith in Linux kernel developers, and my cynicism toward Linux kernel developers.

I will be very surprised if DHH fixes something that hasn't been properly solved in mainline Linux distros for years. (decades?)

At the very minimum, omarchy and omakub already provide out of the box seamless fixes for all the common issues that are “fixed” but need tedious involved configuration nonetheless.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#360

Post by yoavm »

sandGorgon wrote: post #317

you folks should really try the lenovo yoga series. especially this year's yoga slim aura edition (which has the intel lunar lake chips). The ipex-llm extensions are fairly stable and work very well ( https://github.com/intel/intel-extension-for-pytorch ) and the build quality of the laptop is exactly like the macbook air - i have both.

The discussion is mostly around battery life. How's the battery life on your Yoga, how much power does it lose on standby, and what operating system do you use?
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