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A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

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Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#351
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the iPhone wasn't revolutionary, how did Apple go from selling no phones to the selling the most popular phone in just a few years? People were just enamored with the iPod, it was a good device and people paid to see if Apple would make a good phone as well, which it did.

This makes NO sense what so ever. Apple has had plenty of failures in the past e.g. Cube G4 so it is not the case that people will just blindly "buy and try" Apple products. And the idea that ANYONE is going to spend nearly a thousand dollars and lock themselves into a year long contract just to "see if Apple would make a good phone" is plain and utter lunacy.

Don't you know how to argue without doing this type of argumentation that you so commonly uses in Apple versus Android threads? I am not a Apple or Android fan to argue how the US patent system sucks, or how Android sucks, or how Apple is evil, or how Apple is the only company that innovates, all opinions that I read here on Hacker News from people who generally know nothing about life, people just like me. I am really not into these type of discussion that you appear to be so eager to enter in HN.

It's easy to come and say that I am a lunatic, so what's your opinion? Why the iPhone succeeded among the early adopters? Were they all geeks that loved Apple? What about other places that are not the United States in which there's not a Apple store in every major city, do your analysis still stands?

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#352
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's next? The Mac stole from windows? Actually Mac did borrow a few usability from Windows too. 1. Finder Sidebar: Windows Navigation pane 2. The Mac Path bar: Windows Address bar 3. Back and Forward navigation buttons in folder windows 4. Minimizing to document windows into app icon 5. Screen Sharing: Remote Desktop Connection 6. Time Machine: Backup and Restore 7. System Preferences: Control Panel 8. ActiveSync…

Your response is non-responsive. None of these features were stolen in the original Mac UI from 1984 from windows because Windows did not exist in 1984. My point was people were claiming someone "stole" from something that came out later. Also, most of the things you list appeared originally on the Mac, or the windows "equivalents" really aren't and haven't caught up to the mac. The only thing that the Mac did take f…

> most of the things you list appeared originally on the Mac

Since you seem like a fanboy who loves to make up facts without any basis. Let's iterate over the list one by one in more detail:

1. Finder Sidebar: Windows Navigation pane -> Appeared in Mac = Mac OS X 10.3 Panther = Two years after the Navigation pane appeared in Windows XP.

2. The Mac Path bar: Windows Address bar -> Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard added an optional Path bar at the bottom of folder windows to display the path of any selected file or folder. Double-clicking a folder in the path opens that folder. This feature first appeared as the Address bar in Windows Vista, which began appearing nearly a year before Leopard shipped.

3. Back and Forward navigation buttons in folder windows -> Microsoft first put the Forward and Back buttons of Web browsers into its folder windows with Windows 2000. Oddly, Apple first included only a Back button in the original Mac OS X. It wasn't until version 10.2 Jaguar that a Forward button appeared.

4. Minimizing to document windows into app icon -> Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard adds an option for minimizing, which is turned off by default. Instead of creating a new icon in the Dock, you can have a document window minimize into the application icon it belongs to, as Windows has been doing with taskbar.

5. Screen Sharing: Remote Desktop Connection -> Appeared in Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard which was already implemented in Windows XP.

6. Time Machine: Backup and Restore -> Really? Do I really need to prove that System Restore and Backup n Restore appeared before Time Machine??

7. System Preferences: Control Panel -> Before Mac OS X, Mac system settings were found in a set of separate files. Microsoft put all the settings in one convenient place. For Mac OS X 10.0 Cheetah, Apple stole Microsoft's idea and called it System Preferences.

8. ActiveSync and Exchange 2007 support -> Macs have long been second-class citizens to Windows when it comes to Exchange Server. Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard added native support of Exchange Server's 2007's group scheduling, contact, and mail services.

9. Command-Tab: Alt-Tab -> Well you agreed to that.

10. Terminal: Command Prompt -> Windows has had the command prompt integrated since the very first version. Apple finally added Terminal finally after the 9th version.

Love your products and be loyal to your manufacturers, that is one thing but please don't turn off the logic side of your brain!! If you are going to respond to this comment please backup your statements too.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#353

Ever notice how Jony Ive looks nothing like a Googler? This whole trainwreck of a discussion is fed IMHO by the big rift between common, male IT-oriented folks and the rest of the population around visuals, aestethics and yes, concepts like fashion. Sit in the cantina of any company and you can tell who is development/IT. Neckbeards? Socks in sandals? Leather cowboy hats? Attachments on their belts? Unshapely bodies?…

"Ever notice how Jony Ive looks nothing like a Googler?" What the f is this shit? This guy: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UxbxdEwXL7Y/AAAAAAAAAAI/A... is the counterpart to Jony Ive. And that goes for the rest of your head-in-your-ass bigotry.

QED. thank you.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a small article to get you going: http://www.finnegan.com/resources/articles/articlesdetail.as... Here's a brief excerpt: "Design patent secures for their owner a fourteen-year right to exclude others from making, using, selling or importing the claimed product and, thus, allows time to build up secondary meaning necessary to acquire product design trade dress protection. Trade dress protection can last for as…

Ah, thank you very much. With this context, the verdict does make more sense now. I have one last question for you though: I've seen mention of design patents for a bezel around a screen or rectangle with round corners, however should a design patent not cover the entire device? It seems if the idea is to prevent consumer confusion, devices should be viewed holistically, not piecemeal.

Unfortunately, I'm not an IP lawyer. This is why lawyers exist -- they know the historical reasons for why one should file a design patent piecemeal.

My guess is there must have been a prior case where one patented an entire device and the patent was not able to penalize an infringer that may have had a slightly different device. It's possible the defense may have shown that the patent is only valid if the devices are in the exact same category. But who knows, this is just a guess.

I should also note that I'm a different person that the one whom you were replying to in your previous threads.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#355
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sigh. I'm sick and tired of people twisting reality to fit an Apple anti-hero narrative. Makes a change from all the Microsoft bashing. Hard to fit a $ into Apple, though. A$$le maybe? Apple might not have discovered or invented everything (macintosh GUI case in point). But Jobs and Apple in general have a habit of discovering useful technologies and commercialising them. It's a hindcasting mistake to say 'oh, well…

"Well, if it was so obvious, why is Apple continually breaking new ground?" Herds. More specifically group thinking and risk aversion. I can't say I really admire Steve Jobs but what I completely believe was that Steve's willingness to say "my way or the highway" on very very risky decisions and directions is the entire source of Apples "innovation." This trial, and the documentation around the web about prior art, b…

That is why I don't think Apple will do it again, I don't think Tim Cook is able to make that kind of leap. Elon can, but he's already running two other companies.

I don't either. They had the right combination of a bold CEO and their backs to the wall with little to lose at the right time but everything they've done since then is just basically polish. They need to keep coming up with iPad-level hits to maintain their market cap and I just don't see something like that coming out of Cupertino now.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the obviousness argument is getting a little confused in most comments about this case. I am arguing that the technology itself was obvious. This is also what the OP is arguing. Several examples of prior art for patented technologies such as pinch to zoom, rounded corner rectangles, etc. have been presented in other articles here and elsewhere. What is not obvious was the sum of each tiny part that Apple put…

I'd argue there are certain aspects of the iPhone that are truly revolutionary, even if the ideas may have existed in other contexts before. For example, the scrolling mechanism on the iPhone was not done by anyone else prior Apple's product, and now everyone implements scrolling with a flick/inertia. I think had Apple used the old style scrolling methods, we might still be using those today. LG had a 10 year head st…

I agree that Samsung has gone overboard with regards to the packaging. However I feel that a design patent on a tablet form factor is not the best idea. Perhaps it works for fashion designers, and I am not denying that there is creativity in designing hardware devices.

However, as I look at all the various LCD monitors that are around the office right now, I can't help but think about what would happen if there was originally a design patent on the form factor of a monitor. They all seem to have relatively similar:

- border widths - button placements - rounding of corners - status lights and their positions

The same could be said for keyboards, computer towers, even many laptops. There is probably a finite number of practical design available when building a touch screen tablet. If all of them were to be patented, then nobody could build a reasonable tablet.

In response to your second point about the scrolling: It may well be true that the scrolling implementation was non-obvious. Based on your comments, I would agree that this particular aspect is perhaps non-obvious.

I'm just worried about the number of patents being asserted, and that it is highly unlikely that all of them are non-obvious, especially based on the coverage I have read. It seems more likely that Apple hit the big one with the iPhone by building incrementally on existing technologies and techniques, then adding some nice, non-obvious features, rather than building a device so chock full of non-obvious ideas that nobody else would have developed something which was somewhat similar to what we now think of as a smart phone using similar technology.

I don't think the few non-obvious ideas, nor the fact that they brought together existing technologies should be the basis for court fights and attempts to block importation of competitors products. I understand that this was a relatively narrow case, against Samsung and not Android in general, but it seems pretty clear to me that this it is a business decision by Apple to attempt to reduce competition through the courts.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#357
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing as I bought Apple in 08 I understand your reasoning :D A few factors lead to my understanding of this situation changing. 1: Mobile saturation - only thing left is more of the same and virtual/augmented reality. 2: Absolute domination of Android and the continual manufacturing dominance of Samsung 3: The move towards commoditizing most consumer electronics thanks to work done by Google and other hardware manuf…

re #2, dominance is an interesting word, and it can mean a few different things. In terms of percentages of devices in pockets, I believe Android (including all versions) as an OS is doing better than iOS as an OS. In terms of physical smart phones, I think Apple's phones are in more pockets than any other specific manufacture with their name on the box. In terms of raw profit in the smartphone industry, Apple domina…

In terms of raw profit in the smartphone industry, Apple dominates.

Yes, but luxury brands almost never drive any particular market. A lot of the app business these days is about getting an app in front of users as part of some larger business plan and in that world it's the number of eyeballs that count. Once Apple loses that battle then their developer mindshare is going to slide.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#358
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that the major parts- like a touch oriented UI- don't exist until Apple develops them. Umm... I guess you never used a kiosk before the Iphone then. Calling someone lego assembler is not necessarily a bad thing. You can put two and two together and create great things but people are bound to copy great things and make it better. That is how innovation drives forward. Ever heard of the phrase "Reinventing the…

So, you're claiming that Apple licensed their touch UI from a koisk manufacturer? Do tell? Because if you're not saying that you're not being honest about what I said.

> "you're claiming that Apple licensed their touch UI"

Obviously nobody in this thread is claiming such a thing. Perhaps they misunderstood your earlier point (or perhaps you made it poorly) and thus their counterpoints are irrelevant, but that is not the same thing.

You should be more charitable and less trollish in the way you choose to disagree with others.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#359
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key point here is suing your competition to remain competitive is an indicator of a coming fall.

Or that losing a key look and feel lawsuit means the competition can copy you without fear, losing your distinctiveness. I don't think its that black and white but suggesting the lawsuit, and not the lawsuit outcome, is somehow responsible for a company's lack-of-success is silly.

All Apple has gained here is an escalation in the patent war. Google's already fired back with their new Motorola patents and this verdict is going to send everybody scrambling back to the market for more patent acquisitions.

In the meantime iOS is looking increasingly long in the tooth and nobody at Apple seems to be willing to take the kinds of chances that won them their success in this market in the first place. It's a classic innovator's dilemma, raising up a new king and then casting him down.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#360
post #179
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the major parts- like a touch oriented UI- don't exist until Apple develops them. And having seen them, other companies can't replicate them well at all because they don't do the research. Calling them a lego assembler ignores all the real innovation they do.

> Except that the major parts- like a touch oriented UI- don't exist until Apple develops them. I worked on a tablet in '99. I wrote the widget library (we used Nano-X plus a custom widget library and font loader to keep memory usage down - this was a unit with 32MB RAM...) and managed the developers who wrote the apps that are featured: http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/Linux-For-Devices-Article... (the names on th…

Your tablet used scroll bars. Why?
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