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A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

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Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#281
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like they can do 120% of what iOS can do. It's the UI mistakes that hurt them now. TouchWiz and S-Apps demonstrate innovation, but some of it is extremely disorganized (phone app) or painfully copied from iOS (S Voice).

i was referring more to the Samsung phones that run 2.2 or 2.3. The ones that run 4.0 and 4.1 cost the exact same as the iPhone, so people who buy phones like the SG3 (and 6 months ago, the SG2) are doing so because they CHOSE Android, not because it looks like an iPhone.

Android 2.2 & 2.3 still had more features that iOS.

It was just ugly as hell.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#282
post #139
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both arrived at these solutions at the same time because the wide availability of capacitive touchscreens Strange conclusion, given that the original Microsoft Surface does not use a capacitive touchscreen.

His parentheses made you miss the rest of his sentence. > Both arrived at these solutions at the same time because the wide availability of capacitive touchscreens (...) made such UIs an obvious next step to anyone paying attention to the field. He was saying that capacitive was inspiration to both, not used by both.

Right, given the flammability of wood, fire was an obvious next step.

This is nonsense. It is just rejecting innovation out of hand by claiming that it was obvious.

Post Hoc ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "that's apple haters for you" Comments like this do not add to the discussion. "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names." - http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

"Comments like this do not add to the discussion." You'd have a point if that was the extent of the response.

The very next line of the guidelines reads:

> "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#284
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing utility and design patents. They are different things and have different purposes and requirements. Really, you're not the only one, but it is shameful that at this point in time so many people still don't know what patents are, yet comment on HN.

Fair point; I was too quick to comment there. I'm curious though: are you familiar with the reasoning behind the development of design patents? I've done some light research and not turned up much. It seems that trademark and copyright already provide fairly expansive coverage for non-functional IP, so I don't quite see the intent behind the design patent laws.

Here's a small article to get you going: http://www.finnegan.com/resources/articles/articlesdetail.as...

Here's a brief excerpt:

"Design patent secures for their owner a fourteen-year right to exclude others from making, using, selling or importing the claimed product and, thus, allows time to build up secondary meaning necessary to acquire product design trade dress protection. Trade dress protection can last for as long as product design trade dress remains in use and continues to identify the source of goods to consumers. "

And other one on infringement:

"Infringement of the design patent is found when an ordinary observer, giving the attention of a purchaser, perceives the patented and the accused designs as substantially the same, in light of the prior art."

In the court opinions on Gorham v White (1871):

"It is not essential to identity of design that the appearance should be the same to the eye of an expert. If, in the eye of an ordinary observer, giving such attention as a purchaser usually gives, two designs are substantially the same -- if the resemblance is such as to deceive such an observer and sufficient to induce him to purchase one supposing it to be the other -- the one first patented is infringed by the other."

This is why if Samsung creates a product whose design is substantially similar to Apple's, then infringement may occur. This is why the jury consists of "ordinary" people who are the right people to make the judgement call. Too many HN readers are complaining that the jurors should be technically minded because they are thinking of utility patents, and not design patents. You also fall in the same boat, but I'm guessing most HN readers don't even realize there is such thing as "design patents" and "trade dress protection". This is why lawyers are paid to do the arguing, while we sit back and yell from the sidelines.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#285
post #131
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the major parts- like a touch oriented UI- don't exist until Apple develops them. And having seen them, other companies can't replicate them well at all because they don't do the research. Calling them a lego assembler ignores all the real innovation they do.

Bespoke touch oriented UI systems have been around for a very long time, some of them surprisingly sophisticated and innovative. A mate of mine used to do interfaces for touchscreen information kiosks, for instance.

Right and Graham invented the telephone so there was no inventions going into making the cellphone.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#286

This entire trial was a farce. The jury foreman admitted that they "skipped" prior art because "It was bogging us down."[0] > "Once you determine that Samsung violated the patents," Ilagan said, "it's easy to just go down those different [Samsung] products because it was all the same. Like the trade dress, once you determine Samsung violated the trade dress, the flatscreen with the Bezel...then you go down the produc…

The groklaw quotes were taken out of context. As far as I can tell, there's no evidence from those quotes that they skipped prior art, so much as skipped the task to move forward on others before circling back around to it. > I don't like to think of Apple as a pure innovator - I think of them more as an assembler. When they see a market in which all the hardware pieces are available and waiting to be put together, t…

I think that you and jasonlotito are talking past one another. Lets assume that the following are the questions:

    1. Looking at prior art, did Apple create original Patents X, Y, Z?
    2. Did Samsung violate Patent X, Y, Z?
    3. Which phones violate the patent?
    4. How much money should Apple get for each violation?
If you instead answer the questions as follows:

    1. Samsung violated Patents Y and Z
    2. Phones X, Y, Z violate patents Y and Z
    3. Apple should get $X, $Y, and $Z for each phone.
    4. The prior art does indicate that Apple did not create an original product.
The ordering of those answers leaves out important information for the decision on previous questions. In this case most importantly: that the prior art has a bearing on whether or not Samsung actually violated Apples patents.

>"In fact we skipped that one," Ilagan continued, "so we could go on faster. It was bogging us down." ... "Once you determine that Samsung violated the patents," Ilagan said, "it's easy to just go down those different [Samsung] products because it was all the same

This is the evidence to support that conclusion. From: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#287
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the major parts- like a touch oriented UI- don't exist until Apple develops them. And having seen them, other companies can't replicate them well at all because they don't do the research. Calling them a lego assembler ignores all the real innovation they do.

Oh bullshit. We were doing finger operated gesture user interface on the Palm in 2000 (pie menus on virtual buttons for consumer electronic IR remote control interfaces). Lots of people were using touch screens with finger gestures. The Palm included a stylus, but if the interface was designed correctly you could certainly use it with your fingers, and pie menus (self revealing gestures) worked just fine, and there i…

Yes, and the telephone existed before cellphones, but that doesn't mean the cellphone wasn't innovative. Your argument doesn't address the point, and is a bullshit rationalization for a claim you can't support. I refuse to believe you are so stupid as to think that is a rebuttal.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your extrapolation from off the cuff out of context quotes is mind boggling daft in its scope. Instead of providing supporting evidence, you're merely building a larger and larger narrative on top of the same incomplete data. This is the same sort of reality twisting that we see out of the likes of the birther movement -- facts and supporting data take a back seat to whatever supports an appealing narrative.

I don't believe 3 days is enough for 9 people to come to a consensus on such a complicated matter. When I was a juror, it took us 2 days to decide a very clear cut shoplifting case with 1 day of arguments. Our jury also selected a lawyer as foreman--from everything I've read, and my experience, I believe the most logically consistent scenario was that most of the panel simply followed where the "expert" led. --I've u…

> I believe the most logically consistent scenario was that most of the panel simply followed where the "expert" led.

You have no evidence of this what so ever. And the other logically consistent scenario is that the jury didn't follow where the expert led.

And it is not a complicated matter IMHO. Once the document was produced detailing Samsung intentionally trying to copy the iPhone UI and the warning from Google then it was pretty obvious which way this was all going.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Apple brought it to market at the exact point in time that it became viable. The other companies were "waiting" as you say, so why did they wait so long? Didn't they see that the technology was about to become viable? I don't buy that theory. By the sales of the first iPhone, the market was obviously ready. Had it been "barely usable" it would have flopped completely. Capacitive touch screens use the same technolo…

> why did they wait so long? Didn't they see that the technology was about to become viable? As I've said ad nausium, the market wasn't ready for large capacitive touch screens. The technology was too expensive. The market currently isn't ready for "wearable technology", like Project Glass. Every competent observer knows that some form of augmented reality/wearable technology is going to become important in the next…

You've said ad nausium that the market wasn't ready, yet obviously the market was ready when the first iPhone launched since it became a big success.

By saying the market wasn't ready for capacitive touchscreens due to price, you're implying that this was the main thing keeping an iPhone-like device from reaching the market. Looking at the response from the competition after the iPhone launched, I don't think that's realistic at all.

I haven't seen any evidence that large capacitive touch screens were too expensive before 2007 and suddenly became cheap enough after that.

I also have seen zero evidence that any of the competitors were working on pure finger-touch based user interfaces before 2007. Which would be the case if the market was just waiting for capacitive touchscreen prices to come down.

I do agree that Apple shouldn't have a monopoly on touchscreen phones, and they don't, not even after this verdict. I don't like software patents either, but Samsung could have licensed the patents if they wanted to.

Re: A device with a touchscreen and few buttons was obvious

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Groklaw has been a very reliable source for information, but to call them unbiased is naive. Groklaw has always taken an editorial viewpoint. SCO vs IBM? Oracle vs Google? Apple vs Samsung? They always have their favorites, so their analysis tends to skew that way. They don't try to hide it, and their reputation is top notch, but don't claim they aren't biased. Normally, their viewpoint is right in line with most of…

It is one thing to interpret events, it's another entirely to suggest they are biased and therefore unreliable in their reporting or interpretation.

Funny how anyone posting on here who doesn't take a stridently anti-Apple position is accused of being "biased" (even when making ideologically neutral comments, I saw the other day)... yet pointing out that an agenda driven site, which has presented distorted and, frankly, dishonest, reporting of the situation is "biased" is somehow beyond the pale.

The reason you feel this way is because you're biased.

It's ok, I'm biased too.

The problem is, you guys seem to think that you can accuse anyone of being "biased" as if it were a counter argument that excuses you from the need to defend your points.

Here you're derailing the discussion because someone hat the temerity to speak the truth: Groklaw is biased. In fact, "biased" is being generous. They're driven by ideology to the point of being dishonest.

This article is a good example with their selective quoting and their lies about what was done.

For instance, the claim that the jurors had only 2 days to consider the evidence is a lie. They had the whole trial.

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