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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#351

Post by xbar »

the_arun wrote: post #254
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

I think the point is - OpenAI scraped public data - d1 - Trained their model to produce output - d2 - DeepSeek used d2 to reinforce their model OpenAI is mad about d2 (not d1). I'm not sure using public data is "stealing". In summary, these are two different things & need to be separate.

OpenAI (sc)raped all the data it could. I do not accept your assertion that d1 was "public." It was accessible, for certain.

OpenAI asserts 1. d2 was used by DeepSeek 2. All d2 belongs to OpenAI exclusively

Both are debatable for large number of reasons.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#352

Post by munchler »

JoshTko wrote: post #331
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenAI should be excited that it has been freed of the tedious tasks of building AI and now they can focus on higher level and more creative things.

I wish I could upvote this twice

Soon you’ll be freed of the tedious task of upvoting at all.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#353

Post by kavalg »

trissi1996 wrote: post #311
hujun wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or sold to US I could totally see this happening soon

Why would they want to sell ?

And what are they going to sell? The weights and the model architecture are already open source. I doubt the datasets of DeepSeek are better than OpenAI's

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#354

Post by enragedcacti »

ryanobjc wrote: post #247
scotty79 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's hilarious!" was my first reaction as well, when I heard about it the first time. When I came to HN and saw this story on top I was hoping this was the top comment. I was not disappointed. US AI folk were leading for two years by just throwing more and more compute at the same thing that Google threw them like a bone years ago (namely transformers). They made next to no innovation in any area other than how to…

It’s not often you get 100x optimization with some small improvements so I’m kind of skeptical. We have and apples and oranges thing here which deepseek is intentionally leaning into. They get very cheap electricity and are bragging about their cheap cost, and OpenAI etc typically brag about how expensive their training is. But it’s all pr and lies.

> They get very cheap electricity and are bragging about their cheap cost

The cost of $5.5 million was quoted at $2/GPU-hour which is a reasonable price for on-demand H100s that anyone in the US could access, and likely on the high side given bulk pricing and that they are using nerfed versions. OpenAI might be all pr and lies but everything I've seen so far says that deepseek's claims about cost are legit.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#356

Post by jeffreyq »

bwfan123 wrote: post #151
jasoneckert wrote: post #20

What I find the most comical about this is that the whole situation could be loosely summarized as "OpenAI is losing its job to AI."

ha, the story is filled with ironies. OpenAIs $200 closed-ai uppended by hedge-funds free side-project Quant geeks outcompete overpaid silicon valley devs etc. Basically, hubris gets its comeuppance which is a david vs goliath biblical archetype which is why this drama grips all of us.

seems ironic that the turns have tabled. "silicon valley devs" were the analogous "quant geeks" underdogs that unseated the ossified incumbents.

That said, I feel like "quant geeks" aren't quite underdogs compared to silicon valley devs. wdyt?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#357

Post by perryizgr8 »

latexr wrote: post #118
mritchie712 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

openai should pay creators, but: 1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI are not the same thing.

> are not the same thing. You’re right. The second one is far more ethical. Especially when stealing from a thief. Doesn’t Sam Altman keep parroting they’re developing AI “for the good of humanity”? Well then, someone taking their model and improving on it, making it open-source, having it consume less, and having a cheaper API, should make him delighted. Unless he *gasp* was full of shit the whole time. Who could ha…

> Doesn’t Sam Altman keep parroting they’re developing AI “for the good of humanity”?

“I don't want to live in a world where someone else makes the world a better place better than we do”

- Gavin Belson

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#358

Post by DrScientist »

floatrock wrote: post #246
daft_pink wrote: post #177

This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail. AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and adv…

The railroads drama ended when JP Morgan (the person, not yet the entity) brought all the railroad bosses together, said "you all answer to me because I represent your investors / shareholders", and forced a wave of consolidation and syndicates because competition was bad for business. Then all the farmers in the midwest went broke not because they couldn't get their goods to market, but because JP Morgan's consolida…

> Consolidation and monopoly over your competition is always the end goal.

Surely that's only possible when you have a large barrier to entry?

What's going to be that barrier in this case - cos it turns out not to be neither training costs/hardware or secret expertise.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#359

Post by sadjad »

elashri wrote: post #60

There is an Egyptian say that would translate to something like "We didn’t see them when they were stealing, we saw them when they were fighting over what was stolen" That describes this situation. Although to be honest all this aggressive scraping is noticeable but for people who understand that which is not majority of people. but now everyone knows.

"When two thieves quarrel, what was stolen emerges."

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#360

Post by r00fus »

semking wrote: post #206
gruez wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture at the end showing deepseek's privacy policy and being concerned that it's "a security risk" is hilarious[1]. Basically every B2C company collects this sort of information[2], and is far less intrusive than what social networks collect[3]. But because it's Chinese and at the risk of overtaking Western companies, people are suddenly worried about device information and IP addresses? [1] https://semking.com…

One of my core followers named Bruno basically said the same thing under my Linkedin post yesterday: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/organic-growth_deepseek-the-o... I welcome friction, so I'll be blunt: I disagree with you, not because what you are saying is wrong but because you only consider systematic data collection. That's not the issue here. There's a difference between democracies like the United States or Eur…

Amusing Bruno seems to think in terms of labels when the reality is that the USA imprisons far more people per capita, and blatantly disregards its so-called "core freedoms" (ie, Bill of Rights) for its citizens very often.

This kind of person has a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.

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