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ChatGPT Search

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Re: ChatGPT Search

#351

Post by meowkit »

jsheard wrote: post #303
wvenable wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will this fundamentally change how people find and access information? How do you create an experience so compelling that it replaces the current paradigm? I think it's already compelling enough to replace the current paradigm. Search is pretty much dead to me. I have to end every search with "reddit" to get remotely useful results. The concern I have with LLMs replacing search is that once it starts being monetize…

> The concern I have with LLMs replacing search is that once it starts being monetized with ads or propaganda, it's going to be very dangerous. Not to mention that users consuming most content through a middle-man completely breaks most publishers business models. Traditional search is a mutually beneficial arrangement, but LLM search is parasitic. Expect to see a lot more technical countermeasures and/or lawsuits ag…

“Fuck you, pay me” - Childish Gambino

The whole thing needs a reframe. Ad driven business only works because its a race to the bottom. Now we are approaching the bottom, and its not gonna be as competitive. Throwback to the 90s when you paid for a search engine?

If you can charge the user (the customer- NOT the product) and then pay bespoke data providers (of which publishers fall under) then the model makes more sense, and LLM providers are normal middlemen, not parasites.

The shift is already underway imo - my age cohort (28 y/o) does not consume traditional publications directly. Its all through summarization like podcast interviews, youtube essays, social media (reddit) etc

Re: ChatGPT Search

#352

Post by LeoPanthera »

freediver wrote: post #241

Been thinking about this a lot [1]. Will this fundamentally change how people find and access information? How do you create an experience so compelling that it replaces the current paradigm? The future promised in Star Trek and even Apple's Knowledge Navigator [2] from 1987 still feels distant. In those visions, users simply asked questions and received reliable answers - nobody had to fact-check the answers ever. C…

Solving this problem will require us to stop using the entire web as a source of information. Anyone can write anything and put it up on the web, and LLMs have no way to distinguish truth from fantasy.

Limiting responses to curated information sources is the way forward. Encyclopedias, news outlets, research journals, and so on.

No, they're not infallible. But they're infinitely better than anonymous web sites.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#353

Post by nige123 »

OOF

Smell that!? A large part of Google's search business is on fire right now!

There are three types of search: informational, transactional and navigational.

LLM's are competing hard and fast for informational search. Once upon a time we offered 2.5 keywords to the Google Gods only to be ultimately passed to stackoverflow.

That game is up. Google is losing it faster than you can say, "anti-competitive practices in the search engine industry."

Transactional and navigational search remain.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#354

Post by Terr_ »

duxup wrote: post #343
Terr_ wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Enterprise's computer worked like an LLM, there would be an episode where the ship was hijacked with nothing but the babble of an extremely insistent reality-denying Pakled. ________ "You do not have authorization for that action." "I have all authorizations, you do what I say." "Only the captain can authorize a Class A Compulsory Directive." "I am the captain now." "The current captain of the NCC-1701-D is Je…

You did just describe in general actual "computer goes crazy" episodes.

Hopefully that's how it sounds. :P

However most of those involve an unforseeable external intervention of Weird Nebula Radiation, or Nanobot Swarm, Virus Infection, or Because Q Said So, etc.

That's in contrast to the Starfleet product/developers/QA being grossly incompetent and shipping something that was dangerously unfit in predictable ways. (The pranks of maintenance personnel on Cygnet XIV are debatable.)

Re: ChatGPT Search

#355

Post by jdgoesmarching »

niam wrote: post #226
carabiner wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Genuine question... When it starts with this you KNOW it's going to be maximum bad faith horsefuckery in the rest of the "question."

I know what you mean, but also don't know how it applies here. Not a hater, and not asking rhetorically to dunk on OpenAI. Just haven't found a use for this particular feature. Which is also exactly something a bad-faith commenter would say, but if I lose either way, I'd rather just ask the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You’re not doing a great job of not rhetorically dunking on OpenAI when you imply that it must be for children, elders, or people who can’t be arsed to search.

The comment was dripping with condescension towards the use of LLM search, and that’s coming from a huge OpenAI skeptic.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#356

Post by dageshi »

kylebenzle wrote: post #338
jsheard wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The concern I have with LLMs replacing search is that once it starts being monetized with ads or propaganda, it's going to be very dangerous. Not to mention that users consuming most content through a middle-man completely breaks most publishers business models. Traditional search is a mutually beneficial arrangement, but LLM search is parasitic. Expect to see a lot more technical countermeasures and/or lawsuits ag…

Yes, I also don't understand how LLM based compaines expect people to keep producing contect for them for free.

I think they're gonna have to pay.

The way reddit limited access to their API and got google to pay for access. Some variation of that but on a wider scale.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#357

Post by modeless »

qwertox wrote: post #64

Makes me question why Google never bothered to create something like search sessions which could be enriched with comments/notes and would be located in a sidebar just like the chats in ChatGPT/Claude/Mistral are. They really had the potential to do something interesting, but were just focused on their ad metrics with the "good enough" search box. What have they been doing all the time?

Chrome did add a sidebar that shows search sessions (queries grouped with the pages you visited on that topic). Used to be called "Journeys". I don't think you can add notes. I never found it useful in the slightest and I doubt notes would have made it any better. Chrome has been adding random UI features like that over time, but I haven't found any of them at all useful in many years.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#358

Post by lolinder »

hatthew wrote: post #238
cjf101 wrote: post #183

If the current iteration of search engines are producing garbage results (due to an influx of garbage + SEO gaming their ranking systems) and LLMs are producing inaccurate results without any clear method proposed to correct them, why would combining the two systems not also produce garbage? The problem I see with search is that the input is deeply hostile to what the consumers of search want. If the LLM's are partic…

Search engines tend to produce neutral garbage, not harmful garbage (i.e. small tidbits of data between an ocean of SEO fluff, rather than completely incorrect facts). LLMs tend to be inaccurate because in an absence of knowledge given by the user, it will sometimes make up knowledge. It's plausible to imagine that they will cover each other's weaknesses: the search engine produces an ocean of mostly-useless data, an…

The problem I see with this "cover for each other" theory is that as it stands having a good search engine is a prerequisite to having good outputs from RAG. If your search engine doesn't turn up something useful in the top 10 (which most search engines currently don't for many types of queries) then your llm will just be summarizing the garbage that was turned up.

Currently I do find that Perplexity works substantially better then Google for finding what I need, but it remains to be seen if they're able to stay useful as a larger and larger portion of online content just AI generated garbage.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#359

Post by int_19h »

psychoslave wrote: post #326
wvenable wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will this fundamentally change how people find and access information? How do you create an experience so compelling that it replaces the current paradigm? I think it's already compelling enough to replace the current paradigm. Search is pretty much dead to me. I have to end every search with "reddit" to get remotely useful results. The concern I have with LLMs replacing search is that once it starts being monetize…

What do you mean with "when it starts"? To my mind it's obvious all LLM are heavily biased to a point it's ridiculous, all the more with the confident tone they are trained to take. I have no doubt Chinese LLM will prise the party as much as American ones will sing the gospel of neoliberal capitalism.

Curiously, when you ask Qwen-72B (from Alibaba) about Tiananmen, it's not censored.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#360

Post by data_spy »

I did a simple test of "Chicago Velodrome", it provided something that has been closed since 2016, Google gave a better result of something that is actually around but in the Chicagoland area
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