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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#351

Post by ErrantX »

Jabbles wrote: post #172
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…

> Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal is inappropriate. I don't see how you can't see that someone might be offended by it.

Absolutely.

One of the first jobs I worked was doing admin & tech support in a small office - full of women. Worst 6 months of my life, and my experience was much the same as this bloggers.

Which has really helped me avoid this sort of problematic behaviour now I am working in a mostly-male industry/workplace.

Re: "Lighten up"

#352

Post by Cushman »

astine wrote: post #255
mtrimpe wrote: post #138

Being an ex-queer (bi ;) I've had to put up with my fair share of subtle jabs and general discomfort with my presence. After a long time I figured out that the only thing that worked for me was to be more dominant than 'them.' The thing is, women (and queers) are fucking powerful, they're just powerful in a different way. Ironically, but not unsurprisingly, women are taught not to use this power as it's 'inappropriat…

"In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.'" It is nasty. It's called passive-aggressiveness and it undermines honest communication in th…

I iPad-downvoted you, sorry-- I actually agree 100%. It's important to keep in mind in general that even members of oppressed classes can be discriminatory, and it's no less of a problem.

Re: "Lighten up"

#353

Post by stakecounter »

Swizec wrote: post #194
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Public perception (as judged by art, which usually represents a slightly caricatured version of reality) seems to imply that your attractiveness and the appropriateness of your comments are inversely correlated. That is to say, if you tell a woman she looks good, it will be a compliment if she likes you, a sexist remark if she doesn't.

Do you mean directly correlated? If you are more attractive, your comments will be more appropriate. If you are less attractive, your comments will be less appropriate.

Re: "Lighten up"

#354

Post by sukuriant »

prawn wrote: post #350
yelsgib wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

For anyone else who had no idea what a "pot luck" was - it's basically a "bring-a-plate" event ("Odds on savoury, evens on dessert" at a residential street party).

In the context of work, the event is probably at the work itself, like in one of the open meeting rooms.

Re: "Lighten up"

#355

Post by hengli »

While subtle discrimination is really bad, how does she get from low cut dress to slut? That's surely something she came up with herself and nothing like that the guy intended. The guy certainly doesn't want her to wrap herself up in sweaters, why does she feel like that's how she should respond?

I feel like there's a huge gulf between second and third wave feminists. Modern ones would find the above comment empowering, you only react in this way if you've been brought up in a society and culture that demeans female sexuality and teaches you that low cut dresses implies slutiness and so on.

Re: "Lighten up"

#356

Post by mhartl »

wpietri wrote: post #340
mhartl wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand. Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. When crude behavior persists even in the face of a draconian legal environment, complaining about it or writing frustrated blog posts certainly won't fix it. Your situation is slightly different. As a CTO, you have the power to prevent this behavior in your sphere of influence. But fixing the tech indu…

Your notion of "rational" is weak. It's the small-minded, self-interested, narcissistic version of the term. Fixing this problem in the tech industry may or may not be beyond my reach. We'll see. But I will try as long as I'm involved in software. Hopefully I will have made a difference. But if I don't, that's still ok, because then I won't have been one of those assholes who stands around ignoring (or profiting from…

I think that blog posts like this are absolutely a part of fixing the problem.

I hope you're right. You're far more optimistic than I am. In particular, I've seen an awful lot of hand-wringing about this subject in the Ruby community over the past five years—most of it similar in content and tone to the OP—and it doesn't seem to be having any effect.

Re: "Lighten up"

#357

Post by lolilives »

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #140

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addre…

Not sure, but this might be the study you were referring to: http://advance.cornell.edu/documents/ImpactofGender.pdf

Re: "Lighten up"

#358

Post by scott_s »

Jabbles wrote: post #284
hythloday wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can totally see how you read him as justifying himself; I read him as being conflicted about being brought up to believe that it was OK to do things he now thinks aren't OK, so I wanted to speak up in appreciation that someone would put himself in a position to be criticized like that--I think "masculinity" (whatever that is) benefits from having people say that.

Absolutely, I agree - I appreciate him expressing his opinion, as it's provoked a good discussion. However, I still disapprove of that opinion. Also, I misread that as "censor", my mistake.

You're still misunderstanding what he said. He is not expressing his opinion that its acceptable to say such things. He realizes it's wrong to say such things - but he is disturbed because he realizes that it's something he may say.

Re: "Lighten up"

#359

Post by hythloday »

desireco42 wrote: post #334
hythloday wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to play the HN etiquette bot, but you're being downvoted because you basically replied to a post saying, "don't dismiss my concerns when you don't share them" by dismissing her concerns because you don't share them.

No, I said that as consultant who was in a number of companies, I didn't see behavior she describes. It is not the rule, but exception and not characteristic for IT, which is pretty much what she is implying. And you are being a jerk :) for downvoting, thank you very much.

And you are being a jerk :) for downvoting, thank you very much.

I didn't downvote you. But, um, thanks for calling me a jerk anyway?

Re: "Lighten up"

#360

Post by Strallus »

theorique wrote: post #322
yelsgib wrote: post #148

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

I fucking hate all of this talk about "manchildren" and "brogrammers" and whatever else. Stop essentializing the problem. Stop the man hate. Fucking hell. If you're experiencing this pushback from women in the profession as 'man hate' that's certainly your right. I view it more as listening to a professional colleague telling a story from her perspective. I'm not experiencing it as hate, more as hearing from a woman…

Maybe the problem can't be fixed. As long as techies remain predominately male, this problem will persist.

And why are they predominately male? Either- A: Men, for some unknown reason, like programming better. B: The sexist environment drives women away.

Whichever one it is, the problem will not resolve itself. For A, as long as men like it better, and there are more of them, women will be seen as outsiders. For B, as long there are more men, some of whom are sexist, the women will be driven away and the ratio of m/f will stay the same.

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