80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans • Hacker News Board

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#351

Post by namrog84 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:37 AM UTC

laserlight wrote: post #280

dt3ft wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only this would make me consider going back to the office: a 5 hour workday, paid as 8. The 3 remaining hours would be compensating for the commute, which includes the time to get dressed. Commuting costs and food should be compensated as well. Nothing else. Even with the above, I would still prefer a hybrid or remote positions as long as I have a choice. Standing on a crowded train is not something I want to do ever…

> which includes the time to get dressed Thanks for mentioning this. It drives me crazy how people think of commute time as the time their engines are running, whereas the overhead of doing so is relatively significant.

Not just dressing or engine running but everything.

When wfh I can prepare breakfast during morning meeting wearing wireless headset. When going into office I either had to make food before I leave or go out of my way to buy something (on way to work or at work).

It's not hard to listen in on daily morning meetings and prep breakfast or same with lunch.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#352

Post by Waterluvian » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:38 AM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #344

To even have a return-to-work policy one has to be a businese that was able to work from home in the first place. But a great many of us work in fields that never really had that option. So data about working from home being better or worse is inherently biased as it comes from only that subset of businesses that can easily make such a move. I propose that the people/jobs who can even consider the debate represent a…

Wouldn’t it be more biased to include data from those who don’t have a choice?

Breathing air is overrated, says all fish. Amphibians bias the data and should be omitted.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#353

Post by lifeisstillgood » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:39 AM UTC

dudul wrote: post #180

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #147

Most (tech) jobs involve huge amounts of co-ordination and creativity. This is waaaay easier in person, so having all the people needed in the same location makes a huge difference. But the "same location" is almost an inverse square law. Same room - great. Really strong. Same floor . pretty good. Same building. Well that's starting to hurt. Different building, different town, different time zone. At the different ti…

Where do you get that coordination and creativity require in person time? I would argue that most creative activities are better done alone in a cabin in the middle of the woods. And I coordinate just fine with tools available online.

I think you might be mistaking the kind of co-ordination that is possible with CI/CD tools to the co-ordination possible with shouting at each other in a room or having coffee or just being part of human interactions

If you are emailing people and co-ordinating that way you are already part of the political in-group.

If so then co-ordination is fine. But who is part of the political in-group, especially for constantly evolving projects and setups is a human activity and those are best done in person, walk bye, conversations that just happen.

Maybe your company culture does everything over email utterly in the open. Maybe the linux mailing list is the right way to do things.

Maybe I am missing something

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#354

Post by Macha » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:40 AM UTC

GMoromisato wrote: post #202

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

Complete tangent: I wonder if it's uniquely American to believe that people can/should only be passionate about jobs that are world-changing. Or maybe it's just very common in the tech-world and HN. I'm absolutely guilty of this. I'm a software engineer, and I feel proud of having worked on products that millions of people use. Steve Jobs's challenge to "put a dent in the universe" is axiomatic for many of us. Yet I…

It's funny, because my perspective as a European is American culture places more value on the performative idea of "love your job" even for the entry level jobs where here it's much more honest about it just being a job

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#355

Post by xmcqdpt2 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:43 AM UTC

cyberlurker wrote: post #142

seneca wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is working from home able to replace daycare? That's a new one to me.

Yea that makes no sense. Maybe during the pandemic it made sense when daycares were closed down and people were worried about the health risks. But now, there is no way you can tend to a kid and be a productive remote employee at the same time.

I'm a relatively young parent and I've had (childless) friends tell me similar things. Some people don't understand how much work it is to keep a 4 year old entertained.

The article funnily mentions "pet or child care", with EY handing out 800$ per year for it. What's 800$ of childcare, like two weeks? One week?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#356

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:43 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #352

sandworm101 wrote: post #344

To even have a return-to-work policy one has to be a businese that was able to work from home in the first place. But a great many of us work in fields that never really had that option. So data about working from home being better or worse is inherently biased as it comes from only that subset of businesses that can easily make such a move. I propose that the people/jobs who can even consider the debate represent a…

Wouldn’t it be more biased to include data from those who don’t have a choice? Breathing air is overrated, says all fish. Amphibians bias the data and should be omitted.

More like dont make statements such as "all workers should be allowed standing desks" or "nobody should work saturdays" when clearly such things do not apply to enormous blocks of the population. We all need to remember that most people do not work similar jobs to ourselves, that our own experience is rarely ever applicable to the larger workforce.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#357

Post by isaacremuant » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:44 AM UTC

jaculabilis wrote: post #163

adamkf wrote: post #26

Here's the quote from the [actual whitepaper]( https://envoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Workplace_Data_... ) from Envoy that this article references: > 80% of executives say they would have approached their company’s return-to-office strategy differently if they had access to workplace data to inform their decision-making. Envoy's not exactly an unbiased source here, since they sell software to collect this data.

So what this really says is that 80% of executives would have used a different approach if they had data about the subject. Which... is pretty lackluster? If you don't change your strategy in response to new data, you're bad at your job.

I know for a fact that many HAD data on employee willingness and on Productivity and it didn't lead to 3 days in the office RTO but that followed interests in the retail value and government taxes due to "reviving" downtown and similar ideas of centralized economic growth (which only benefits the few who have investments in those dense office zones and actually damages decentralization, horizontal growth and environmental improvements).

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#358

Post by prmoustache » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:44 AM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #311

azmodeus wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you can tax deduct your rent for an office room with a door and a proportion of your utilities for the office

Only if you don't use the room for anything except work. You've got a computer in there that you're also using for private stuff? Not tax-deductible anymore. Private books on the bookshelf? Not tax-deductible anymore. You've got a wardrobe with some clothes you're only accessing once per season (to store off-season clothes)? Not tax-deductible anymore.

Like you will declare those...

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#359

Post by isaacremuant » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:46 AM UTC

floucky wrote: post #320

throwaway892238 wrote: post #60

I decided I will never again work in an office, for the rest of my life. It's a lifestyle choice. I refuse to put up with the B.S. anymore. I'm lucky that I've had a long career and my skills are very much in demand, so I will always be able to find a remote job somewhere. People doing jobs with more qualified candidates in the pool will probably have a harder time, and that sucks. For them, I hope they can band toge…

Don't you think full remote is kind of selfish? I mean, I also love it, but what about new hires and junior? How are they going to learn and improve if each time they have a question, they need to post it on slack and just wait...

Slack is no different than the desk if you're using it like that.

You can hop as easily to huddle as you'd do an interruption. Of course, a junior interrupting ALL the time in real life would be a terrible thing so you definitely need to strike a balance.

But I see most arguments for office is better from people who just don't know how to communicate effectively through tools and potentially are bad at cross location team collab, which happens all the time in big companies.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#360

Post by alpaca128 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 11:46 AM UTC

bombolo wrote: post #324

re-thc wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depending on your budget, you can block out anything short of jackhammers with either IEMs or earbuds+noise reduction earmuffs. Perhaps more a personal thing but it induces a dizziness/ drowsiness with extended use. It’s fine when watching say a movie but I could never work for long periods with my ears blocked. Wonder if I’m the only 1 but I have heard of similar cases.

I get pain from the hears not being in their natural position.

That problem went away for me once I found headphones that are actually over-ear and not only marketed as such. I can wear them all day every day because they're large enough to not even touch my ears, very light because of a plastic case and open headphones so they don't feel as "pressurized". Bad for noisy environments, though.