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Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

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Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#351
post #269

This is now firmly in religious territory. Is there much of a difference between this and halal/kosher certification?

Halal and kosher have very specific rules that must be abided by in order to fit, which do not change.

What's kosher or not has different interpretations depending on which group (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform) you're talking to. The situation w/ Cheese and source of rennet is a frequent one where you'll see different groups following different rules.

Also gelatin is another one.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#352

The irony of “anti racism” is that its core goal of racial preferences is one championed mainly by white elite administrators. Let’s be clear: most minorities oppose explicit racial preferences, including Black people: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/05/08/america... In a recent example, the California ballot measure that would have legalized racial preferences in the state failed overwhelmingly, inclu…

> Why does this hold so much appeal?

IMO it's all because of virtue signaling. I would say the majority of people that push this stuff don't really care about DEI, they only care because it makes then seem righteous and virtuous, and it's a feedback loop. They do the thing, they post about it on social media, and they then get praise for the thing they are doing.

When you start looking it from the lens of "these people just want to be popular and get likes", it all starts making sense.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#353
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, countering negative ideas with suppression does not work . Countering speech with more speech is better. Roger Baldwin, founder of the now gone-astray ACLU, may have put it best [1], > Host: "What possible reason is there for giving civil liberties to people who will use those civil liberties in order to destroy the civil liberties of all the rest?" > Roger: "That's a classic argument you know, that's w…

[flagged]

Seems like it's worked well? Wikipedia tells me that he's "one of the most cited scholars alive" and "has influenced a broad array of academic fields"; I'm not personally familiar with his academic work, but most of my friends strongly endorse his perspectives on capitalism and foreign policy. It's hard to see how compromising on free speech could have led his ideas to be more successful.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#355
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a quote from Haidt, speaking from his memory of the policy. That's not the policy. He's hardly a neutral point of view.

https://spsp.org/events/demonstrating-our-commitment-anti-ra... "Evaluate the extent to which the submission advances SPSP's goal of promoting equity, inclusion and anti-racism. To do so, please consider the equity statement as well as the submission as a whole. Submissions advancing equity, inclusion, and anti-racist goals may include (but are not limited to): * Diverse research participants (e.g., understudied or u…

Honestly, this just strikes me as typical of the the kind of heavy-handed, bureaucratic box-ticking that now dominates academia.

One of the first things I had to do as a post-doc was complete a 4-page document on whether my chair was comfortable enough.

I have been involved in major EU grant applicants that exceed 100 pages, and consist of excruciatingly obtuse questions as to how our project aligns with their institutional goals and byzantine definition of 'success'.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#356

I for one welcome this change. The whole university system has for decades been built on a house of straw and the ideologues of DIE are dismantling it bit by bit. What structures we build next will surely be interesting.

The most notable, destabilizing proclivity that Universities have been engaging in for recent decades (keep in mind many have been around for centuries) is participating at all, and lo, converging towards in specific political action which is, among many traits, too censorious to be considered academic.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#357
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination." - Kendi Kendi is a key promoter of "anti-racism", which is described in the above quote. Many institutions are signing on to this agenda, which requires people to view everything through this ideological (social j…

Did you notice that that promotes an eternal cycle of hatred? Because present day discrimination would mean discriminating against yesterday's powerful, and thus future discrimination will be the opposite. That someone, who seriously wrote something like that, has got influence is not a good sign.

The people pushing this garbage are dependent on racial conflict to exist in order to keep having a job.

Of course they want the blood feuds to continue forever.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Censorship is all these characters need to gain new followers. No, they also need a platform to make people aware of their existence, their views, and to recast their censorship to be in their favour. The whole point of no-platforming individuals is to make a statement that their views are seen as reprehensible and to stop them from being able to air those views to an audience. Not all ideological disputes are abou…

> we know that have a tendency to abuse such spaces through techniques such as emotional rhetoric [..] In the spirit of fairness, should one actually no-platform everyone using emotional rhetoric? Your favourite media outlet will almost certainly have a lot less to say if we do. Depending on your PoV, this may or may not be a bad thing.

It's not a problem if someone with a big audience advocates for and does not use rational arguments, as long as that thing is relatively harmless. (Let's say Bono advocates for peace, or a local group wants a new playground because it would warm their hearts. Or a group wants lower taxes, or a different group wants to tax the rich more. Even this last one, while advocates discrimination, it's not against a disadvantaged group, it's not judging something unchangeable like skin color, IQ, etc.)

Of course it's never good to allow bad arguments into the "marketplace of ideas", because then they'll take over the market, but unfortunately that ship has sailed, or likely never arrived.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the principle incorrect? It’s a truth like evolution. You can’t fix past discrimination without future discrimination, in most cases. That is something you can model quite nicely mathematically. The question is just if it is reprehensible to do so. Or if there are times when it is more or less reprehensible.

> How is the principle incorrect? It’s a truth like evolution. You can’t fix past discrimination without future discrimination, in most cases. True like creationism more like. Here's some other perspectives: - Things in the past can't be fixed. We can't "fix" past discrimination any more than we can fix 9/11 or retroactively fix the holocaust. - Are you trying to decrease discrimination or racially biased life outcom…

> - Things in the past can't be fixed. We can't "fix" past discrimination any more than we can fix 9/11 or retroactively fix the holocaust.

You're right -- fix is not the right word. But you can dampen the impact of the event. For example, I think we provided various types of relief to different classes of victims of 9/11.

> - Are you trying to decrease discrimination or racially biased life outcomes? If you want less discrimination, adding more discrimination is obviously counterproductive. If what you want is more wealthy black people, why don't you say that?

I want people to not be impacted by discriminatory practices. The problem is that there are many practices that exist, for which their reduction in the name of this cause would be noted as discriminatory in themselves. At any given point in time you often must choose between which discriminatory practice to continue. For example, giving admissions benefits to legacies. Or tax breaks for estate taxes. Or property tax based funding of schools. Etc...

> - Having discriminatory hiring quotas misunderstands how wealth creation works. Promoting people in companies based on skin tone or gender instead of their skills makes companies weaker, and in turn rusts the engine of capitalism. That makes everyone more poor.

This is an example of a practice that only looks like it helps underreresented minorities, but is actually long-term discriminatory against them. I don't support such policies. In fact as you note, this actually helps you as a white male even more -- and I actually do believe this.

> - There's lots of ways to help people of color without discriminating against white people. Like introducing better social support for single parent families, reducing prison sentences for non-violent offenders, etc.

This is where it gets interesting and where anti-racism comes into play. There are things that can reduce the gap, and based on anti-racism principles these policies are indeed anti-racist, and discriminatory against whites. Again, it's about being results driven and not intent driven. These practices can reduce discrimination aginst minorities in outcomes -- but the mere fact of doing so increases discrimination against whites in outcome (at least relatively so). I don't think you can do one w/o the other. This is why the only way to counter past discrimination is future discrimination, even if not intended to discriminate.

And what anti-racism asks is to look at all policies through this lens. As I noted in another thread, unfortunately, this tenant of anti-racism itself is racist (usings its own definition). Not because of "reverse-racism", but simply because once things are cast as beneficial to minority groups, their support amongst the general population reduces. In essence the most effective way to reduce discrimination is to discriminate, but w/o intent.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Censorship is all these characters need to gain new followers. No, they also need a platform to make people aware of their existence, their views, and to recast their censorship to be in their favour. The whole point of no-platforming individuals is to make a statement that their views are seen as reprehensible and to stop them from being able to air those views to an audience. Not all ideological disputes are abou…

> No, they also need a platform to make people aware of their existence, their views, and to recast their censorship to be in their favour. The whole point of no-platforming individuals is to make a statement that their views are seen as reprehensible and to stop them from being able to air those views to an audience. The only way that this works is to exert total control of the content of all communications. Otherwi…

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