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No that's bullshit. If you ask me to say "I hate hitler and bin laden" for no reason I would have a similar reaction as well. How can people put up with this filth? It repulses and disgusts me so much when kindness, compassion and even justice are absorbed by this bureaucratic ideological machine where people say and do things out if insincerity, just as lip service to fall in line politically. How do people feel com…
Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
101–110 of 906 posts
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nope. People rightly reject these "principles" as incorrect and both morally and pragmatically reprehensible.
How is the principle incorrect? It’s a truth like evolution. You can’t fix past discrimination without future discrimination, in most cases. That is something you can model quite nicely mathematically. The question is just if it is reprehensible to do so. Or if there are times when it is more or less reprehensible.
True like creationism more like.
Here's some other perspectives:
- Things in the past can't be fixed. We can't "fix" past discrimination any more than we can fix 9/11 or retroactively fix the holocaust.
- Are you trying to decrease discrimination or racially biased life outcomes? If you want less discrimination, adding more discrimination is obviously counterproductive. If what you want is more wealthy black people, why don't you say that?
- There's lots of ways to help people of color without discriminating against white people. Like introducing better social support for single parent families, reducing prison sentences for non-violent offenders, etc.
- Having discriminatory hiring quotas misunderstands how wealth creation works. Promoting people in companies based on skin tone or gender instead of their skills makes companies weaker, and in turn rusts the engine of capitalism. That makes everyone more poor.
- Discrimination like this causes new problems. For example, I know several female programmers who worry that they were only hired / promoted as "diversity candidates". That sucks. As a white dude, I know the only thing keeping me employed is my capacity to add value to the business. So in some ways I'm actively supported more because I'm white and male.
- The research shows that diversity of background makes teams stronger, and diversity of values makes teams weaker. Where is this nuance in the political conversation?
There's plenty more ways to think about this issue. Fixing past racism against black people with modern racism against white people is an obviously controversial policy. (This thread alone is proof enough). Shutting that conversation down is censorious and utterly unbecoming of the academy.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
Faster renders favour people in socioeconomically deprived areas who lack higher-end resources and thus face a barrier to entry in the field. Boom. Submit.
For somebody who was born behind the Iron Curtain, this has very strong Soviet vibes. Back then, it was advisable to stuff quotes by Marx or Lenin into everything, even an article discussing milk production.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nope. People rightly reject these "principles" as incorrect and both morally and pragmatically reprehensible.
How is the principle incorrect? It’s a truth like evolution. You can’t fix past discrimination without future discrimination, in most cases. That is something you can model quite nicely mathematically. The question is just if it is reprehensible to do so. Or if there are times when it is more or less reprehensible.
2) Evolution was not blindly accepted as "truth" the way you seem to expect this so-called "principle" to be accepted simply on your say-so (or prophet Kendi's?). Quite the contrary, it was not accepted at all and evidence had to provided. Lots and lots of evidence. Overwhelming evidence. And it is not accepted as truth by faith now either.
3) The mere claim "you can model [this] quite nicely mathematically" is not evidence for the claim. It is only evidence for you making that claim.
4) Even an actual mathematical model, should one actually be presented rather than just claimed, is not evidence for the claim. There are infinite mathematical models that are consistent with themselves yet inconsistent with the real world.
5) Yet, there are mountains of evidence that identity politics lead to bad outcomes.
6) And yes, racism (which this so-called "anti-racism" clearly is) is clearly reprehensible. This is something we fortunately figured out a while ago, and the fact that we figured it out was a major step up in our societal evolution. Quite frankly I am shocked and dismayed that we are even having a discussion about this. No. NO. Doing away with this nonsense was a major achievement for humanity, we can't give it up this easily.
6) Also: two wrongs never make a right.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem to be suggesting that the only way to right past wrongs is to commit further wrongs. Is there really no positive way forward?
As a society we view “further wrongs” differently. Taking money from someone who stole from you (with the help of the legal system) isn’t considered a further wrong. Criminals rarely utilize the “let’s do no further wrong defense” at sentencing. But maybe they should, as there seems to be a huge appetite for this sort of thing.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
I trust you do understand the distinction between the nature of this use vs past.
Tomato tomahto. The important thing is establishing that one group has too many resources which rightfully belong to some other group. The rest is implementation detail.
I understand the arguments, but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with the police taking someone's house from them because they're white.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aah, that makes sense, if I'm understanding it correctly, they specified Asians because they're another minority, but disadvantaged by policies that seek to help other minorities.
Pretty much. Any policy that helps someone on the basis of race is, unsurprisingly, racist.
Naturally, lots of non-native people considered that racist.
Except it was done to try to correct a very real problem - that the native people have disproportionately worse outcomes in our health system. And likewise, due to about 150 years of deliberate policy that marginalised the native people, they were disproportionately less likely to enter medical school.
And there's now, after some years of this policy, an emerging body of evidence that this "racist" policy around medical school spots is making a difference around health system outcomes for native people.
So yes, the policy is, on the surface racist, but it's slowly combating a systemic racism that was baked into all of our government institutions by previous racist policies. (E.g., native people experience a higher conviction rate and harsher sentencing for the same crimes as white people)
There's still a long way to go for us, but yeah, it gets damn complicated when you're trying to undo the damage of previous racism by introducing positive discrimination.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Research should not be dependent on whether or not it hurts any cause. If the research is poorly done, exclude it for that reason. If not, maybe re-examine what your cause is in light of the research. Copernicus's research into the Earth revolving around the Sun hurt the Catcholic church's cause of being the ultimate source of truth for all humanity. They wanted to put a stop to that... Starting with the answer and r…
Copernicus and Galileo being harangued by the Church of their time, and stifling progress of the obvious, is more popular myth than historical fact. It has been debunked many, many times. Ironically, the fervor and persistence with which this story gets propagated ad nauseam feels almost ... religious. I wish people would stop dropping it as the de facto example of interference with science when there are so many bet…
I’m not sure why it has suddenly become so popular to claim that every single historical fact is a myth. Galileo’s prosecution by the Church is not only well-documented, John Paul II. officially apologized for it in 1992. He might have looked into their archives before doing that.
I swear, going around smugly claiming “Only sheeple still believe that theory” about random facts doesn’t make a person seem nearly as smart as they might think it does.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
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By their very nature, "diversity" and "inclusion" are racist because it must consider someone's race. By arguing for "diversity" and "inclusion" we are mandating we judge people for what they are, rather than who they are; judge them by the color of their skin rather than the quality of their character. "Anti-racism", which in American academia usually comes about in the form of blacks and latinos receiving preferent…
The articles in sep deal with the origins of these in depth
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#110I am extremely glad I live in a country in continental Europe where this shit is unconstitutional and will be stricken down by the courts immediately (as will be any sort of preferential treatment of any minority in hiring or admissions). Hope it stays that way.