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Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

reuters.com

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#351

Post by beerandt »

pkilgore wrote: post #309
charonn0 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Judges are not supposed to be partisan 2. I'm not aware of any similar cases being brought under the Trump administration.

1. I'm a former Federal litigator. LMAO. And both Parties here. Welcome to America. That's why they filed this in LA + roll up to 11th Cir. Dems file in WA or HI which rolls to the 9th. State Courts are infinitely worse based on the different experience of close friends working in Chicago area v. Northern Indiana. 2. Every temporary injunction issued in the litigation surrounding the wall and Muslim ban was conducted…

LA is 5th cir.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#352

Post by handrous »

golemotron wrote: post #38
mattzito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the role of the CMS, as established by congress, is to set the guidelines of care and standards of participation for providers who opt to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients. They set rules for everything from how many hospitals can be owned by a single entity, to what sorts of qualifications are required for hospital administrators, to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients. T…

That's the key problem with the US now. Elected representatives are allowed to delegate law making. It breaks the line of accountability. It makes contentious issues worse.

I'd say the key problem is that our electoral system and the structure of our government are broken in a few very serious ways, most of which are nearly impossible to fix, in no small part because fixing most of them would require at least one of our two major political parties to be OK with voting themselves into a weaker position (since some of the most important problems cause there to be only two viable parties at a time and fixing them would weaken the position of both those parties), or else they'd require a constitutional amendment, which is even less likely.

Most of our other problems are a consequence of that.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#353

Post by handrous »

thinkingemote wrote: post #326
docflabby wrote: post #169

If we can't convince medical workers to recieve a vaccine from their peers we are doing something wrong.

This was my initial gut thought, but an employment lawyer helped me seee that most healthcare workers are not university or college educated and they are basically lower middle class. In other words most healthcare workers share the same demographics as those who currently have low uptake on the vaccine.

Yep. For every doctor or nurse with 4+ years of postsecondary education, there are 5+ people with 2 or fewer years of postsecondary education, I'd bet.

The lower tiers of nurse only require 2 years, IIRC, and I think those are more like technical programs than typical liberal-arts-informed degrees. Then there's the clerks, the front-desk people (to include the ones at the "front desk" of each floor, department, or section of the hospital, plus the ones at the actual main entrance[s]) the cleaning and housekeeping staff (someone has to go around restocking supplies and such), the entire billing department, the people who come around to bug sick people about their insurance details, the security guards (hospitals have lots of them), and so on.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#354

Post by handrous »

BoxOfRain wrote: post #269
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. Is... that meant to be a bad thing? Yes, judicial branch should not be directly accountable to voters. In fact, as a Canadian, I find the idea of electing judges to be so thoroughly strange that it almost defies belief. Why the hell would you want your judicial branch to be "democratic", as in directly and immediately beholden to the whims of t…

>In fact, as a Canadian, I find the idea of electing judges to be so thoroughly strange that it almost defies belief. Why the hell would you want your judicial branch to be "democratic", as in directly and immediately beholden to the whims of the mob? As a Briton I agree. It's also why I'm quite sceptical of the concrete benefits of a directly elected House of Lords and the replacement of the monarchy with a presiden…

There's a quiet and small (there are tens of us! Tens, I say!) group of Americans who aren't so sure de facto direct election of the President is a good idea (in fact, it isn't direct, and wasn't intended to be, but in effect sort-of is direct, because the system wasn't set up to defend against what amounts to a variety of attacks on it that broke it almost immediately and gave us what we still have today, which is a worst-of-both-worlds hybrid) or that changing our Senate so that they're directly elected was the right move.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#355

Post by ufo »

hammock wrote: post #346
ufo wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is.

Do you mind sharing the data that supports that?

The studies that got the vaccines approved in the first place had to show that they were effecitive for all adults. I'm sure that with some digging it should be possible to find the data split by age group.

More recently, we've also gotten data for many vaccines showing that they're also effective for children and adolescents.

Lastly, another important group is the elderly. Some studies suggest that they respond more poorly to the vaccine and that the protection may last a shorter time. In response, many countries have prioritized the elderly for receiving booster shots (3rd dose).

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#356

Post by hammock »

ufo wrote: post #355
hammock wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind sharing the data that supports that?

The studies that got the vaccines approved in the first place had to show that they were effecitive for all adults. I'm sure that with some digging it should be possible to find the data split by age group. More recently, we've also gotten data for many vaccines showing that they're also effective for children and adolescents. Lastly, another important group is the elderly. Some studies suggest that they respond more…

>More recently, we've also gotten data for many vaccines showing that they're also effective for children and adolescents.

This is my principal area of concern. If I recall correctly, the studies that were submitted to FDA for approval for young children did not show improvement in hospitalizations or deaths, in fact there was not a single death in any of the groups, rather they relied on showing the jabs successfully produced antibodies (a much lower standard).

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#357

Post by pkilgore »

beerandt wrote: post #351
pkilgore wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I'm a former Federal litigator. LMAO. And both Parties here. Welcome to America. That's why they filed this in LA + roll up to 11th Cir. Dems file in WA or HI which rolls to the 9th. State Courts are infinitely worse based on the different experience of close friends working in Chicago area v. Northern Indiana. 2. Every temporary injunction issued in the litigation surrounding the wall and Muslim ban was conducted…

LA is 5th cir.

Ooops, thanks, going from memory and I was never doing cases there. And the 5th is the most conservative.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#358

Post by 1970-01-01 »

Chris2048 wrote: post #348
1970-01-01 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is it won't acknowledge legislation. It can't be stopped with pen strokes. You will never be able to bargain with it. You can't even communicate with it.

A pen signing a cheque to pay for vaccine could stop the virus. If you mean the virus is literally not stopped by legislation, nor is it literally sentient; who made such a claim? How is the insentient nature of the virus anything but an irrelevant tangent?

>A pen signing a cheque to pay for vaccine could stop the virus.

You can bring a horse to water, but I'll have to force it out for you. The virus is an unstoppable force of nature. It exists in cats, dogs, ferrets, fruit bats, gorillas, hamsters, minks, sea otters, pumas, snow leopards, tigers, hyenas, tree shrews and whitetail deer. It exists in all continents. Your pen and cheque are temporary counter-measures at best.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#359

Post by jtbayly »

kelnos wrote: post #286
jtbayly wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandated not by their employer, but by the federal government's executive branch is the question at hand.

Public schools in many (most? all?) municipalities require kids be vaccinated against several things before being allowed to attend school. This has been the case since well before I was born. This is a government setting the requirement. Now, perhaps it is not legal for the federal government to set this sort of requirement. But maybe it is.

Which is state-mandated, not federal, and done by passed law, not by executive order IIUC. That's still a huge difference.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#360

Post by pkilgore »

beerandt wrote: post #327
pkilgore wrote: post #44

This is a temporary injunction not a ruling on the merits. Just like Democratic judges doing this to Trump, it's far more likely to be influenced by politics of the particular Judge or Court of Appeals that any meaningful statement of the law (which it is not).

One requirement for such an injunction is the high likelihood of winning on the merits.

Correct. Three other factors need to be balanced as well, although LOS definitely the big one. That doesn't make the PI correct, it doesn't even mean that the court will reach the same decision on the merits in Summary Judgement or after a bench trial, and it definitely doesn't make the PI decision the law.
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