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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#351

Post by simonh »

emodendroket wrote: post #332
simonh wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh well, that's alright then. As long as it's only successful people getting screwed I suppose we're good.

I mean, am I supposed to feel sorry for high-income people because they have to pay tax to continue to benefit from US citizenship and US embassies? I don't really, nor do I consider it getting "screwed." I think it is only fair that well-to-do expats should pay into the system like everybody else. If they don't want to, I welcome them to take the article's lead and give up their citizenship.

If it was just getting taxed up to a point I think you'd have a reasonable argument, but looking at the torturous nonsense they have to go through to the point where even US banks think the costs of having them as clients isn't worth the hassle, it's clearly way beyond that. Also, many of these people don't actually owe any tax at all, or relatively small amounts, but it's ridiculously difficult and costly to prove it.

I mean what is the objective? Raise tax revenue from ex-pats, or drive them out of US citizenship? What's actually happening seems to be the latter, not so much the former. Surely that's a serious policy failure.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#352

Post by djbebs »

moss2 wrote: post #315
not_throw_away wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an uncommon belief - feel free to write an extra check to your tax department and they will happily accept it. Normally tax departments have a whole system set up to accept voluntary additional tax payments for anyone who feels inclined to top up their contribution to the wellbeing of the state.

Very clever, but my tax agency does not allow for donations.

Somehow I doubt that. What country are you in?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#353

Post by trutannus »

papito wrote: post #320
trutannus wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complete misrepresentation of my point. I never tried to 'paint "authoritarianism" as "lefty"'. I specified there's an issue with lefties who are also authoritarians . If you don't think that can exist and if you think it's not that big of a deal, I suggest you take a look at the latter-half of the 20th century. It's pretty uncharitable to paint my argument as being afraid of a student on a campus who's rea…

"highly vocal", "influential to public opinion". I am sorry, these are just words. Prove that it's influential. Is there an effort by these "loud" individuals to drive a focused disinformation campaign targeted at nullifying legitimate votes? One third of the United States is entirely sold on it. That is quite "influential", I would say, and presents clear and present danger.

This is just whataboutism again. There's nothing constructive to say to someone who's entrenched in ideology like you clearly are. I'm not taking about the right, and never have been. The right is irrelevant in this conversation. All you have done is derail this into but the other guys are bad too. Did I say "the right is fine?" No, I explicitly did not. I actually said both are tyrants when they can be.

You've addressed nothing I've said and launched a demand for sources on cherry-picked words from the point I made. I don't want to, and won't, argue with ideology and party lines.

You've made nearly identical points to me just about the right for some reason, despite the fact that I'm not even talking about them. I've used the word 'right' once in any other comment until this one. Not sure why you're trying to turn this into a right-left partisan shit-slinging match. Not every discussion of the left necessitates a discussion about the right's negative traits, and vice-versa. If you truly believe this, I suggest you get your head out of American partisan ideology.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#354

Post by ihattendorf »

hnthrwy1111 wrote: post #185

I'm an "accidental American" who has navigated this issue and it's incredibly easy. Just don't file. Every professional that writes blogs about this has a professional duty to give legal advice but the practical advice is just don't file. Look into what exactly triggers data to be sent to the IRS under your tax treaty and the policies of your financial institutions. Being "accidental" is the key here. If you tell you…

And then you slip up, the IRS finds out, and on a connecting flight on your way to another country you get arrested for tax evasion.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#355

Post by vagrantJin »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184
mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

I needed to laugh really hard at this because it encapulates the US citizen's mind so perfectly. Partly because the US lives in my head rent free.

Is it because every single US diplomatic relation is in one way or other tied to the military?

If a jibali captures an operator then fair enough. The US is very preachy about their soldiers. But for a civilian to think about that as a benefit is just wild.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#356

Post by dantheman »

emodendroket wrote: post #321
gricardo99 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least from those expats posting here, the issue isn’t the actual real tax liability, but the burden of having to show the IRS every year that you don’t think you have a tax liability.

That’s a hassle but it seems hyperbolic to call it absurdly cruel and the other things people here are saying.

It is awful - I'm glad you never had to deal with. It provides little revenue and causes a huge amount of hassle and makes living overseas way more difficult.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#357

Post by mtnGoat »

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

I used to live internationally and the taxes weren’t that much more complex. It really shouldn’t cost thousands, it’s just two extra forms if I recall correctly.

If you Are living in high tax regimes like Switzerland you don’t have double tax on the first $xx,xxx in income, it used to be close to 90k.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#358

Post by consumer451 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184
mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

> U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense.

Are we? I’ve been told to use my other passport if ever in a situation like that. Are there any stats that support either case?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#359

Post by tshaddox »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184
mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

So what about American citizens who legally don’t pay any federal taxes? Like, say, children? Should they receive “extraterritorial benefits”?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#360

Post by tremon »

roenxi wrote: post #61

Wow. Eric Schmidt, Cyrpruscian. Cypricite? Cyprosii? The real question here is what the context and amounts of money involved are. % figures in small numbers are useless, a few billion dollars means nothing to America. It isn't even clear to me that this is evidence the "people will stay, even if taxes rise!" crowd have to admit a mistake. And the US has declared a War Against American Citizens Investing in Foreign C…

Eric Schmidt, Cyrpruscian. Cypricite? Cyprosii?

Cyprous.

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