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How to Work Hard

paulgraham.com

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Re: How to Work Hard

#351

Post by nineplay »

bhupy wrote: post #325
nineplay wrote: post #317

One of my greatest regrets is how much time I wasted on 'work' in my 20s and 30s. I was an engineer, I made a comfortable salary, but I rarely took a vacation, I never traveled outside the UI, I took days off reluctantly with a vague feeling that I was letting someone down. "Later", I told myself. When I'm successful, when I'm stable, when I have the money to travel in style and not backpack around and stay at hostel…

> Don't listen to PG, kids. Live the life you want to have now, not the life you think you'll want to have several decades out. Isn't there an in-between? My wife and I both delay a little bit of gratification with the expectation that we'll have a better life in our mid-30's or early 40's. In other words, we're choosing not to live the life we want to have right now , because we're trading that off for a potentially…

It's not about YOLO, it's about looking at your life though a lens besides "work,work,work,save,save,save"

When I was 25 I had the time and the money to take a couple of weeks off and travel. I wouldn't have stayed in the nicest hotels or eaten in fancy restaurants, but I could have done it. It would have had no negative impact on my career and my current financial status.

What kept me from doing it wasn't a careful look at my life goals and the cost/benefits ratio, but a mental model that stopped at "Work hard now and you'll be rewarded I promise"

I didn't see any accounting for that in PG's essay. "Great Men Work Hard And Succeed" is the only message I got.

Re: How to Work Hard

#352

Post by skapadia »

kcatskcolbdi wrote: post #265

No mention of the near slave labor in our agriculture system. No mention of the parents working two custodial jobs to provide for their children. No mention of the vast quantity of individuals working hard every day who don't get to become billionaires.

Exactly. There are millions of people that work hard to provide their family a roof over their heads, food on the table, and a chance to go to school. Perhaps PG's article wasn't meant for those people, but it's so incredibly tone deaf.

Re: How to Work Hard

#353

Post by bosie »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #157
ericmay wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's common when compared to other industries, though maybe not generally common. Admittedly I have no data to back up this hunch. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but my interpretation of what the person you're replying to was trying to get at was that modest savings from a 23+ year old software engineer, to the tune of $800/month or $10,000/year (this could be 401k match and contributions) will get you pret…

Exactly. The math is easy, but convincing people that becoming a millionaire is a matter of consistent moderate savings is still hard. $800/month is $9.6K per year. Approximately half of the maximum 401K contribution limit, so it can be tax-advantaged as well. If you can swing the full 401K maximum, you’ll hit the millionaire status even faster. Add some taxable savings and it can be done in a decade without getting…

Aren’t 401k taxed? Can you write down the math how a police officer can do this easily (get to 1m purchasing power of today’s value in 10 years) please? I cannot figure it out how to even get a quarter of that

Re: How to Work Hard

#354

Post by ryanSrich »

- Working on a computer all day, from the comfort of my house

- Being able to tend to work issues from my phone

- Getting intellectual stimulation from my work

- Getting to work with really really smart people

- Getting to see the joy customers get from using a product you helped build

These may not seem like much. They might even seem like a burden to some. But I've worked horrendous jobs in the past. Not just brutal manual labor, but mindless factory jobs that practically turn your brain into mush.

Working on things I actually enjoy, in an enjoyable environment, for 12-16 hours per day is a life I'd take any day of the week over life's I've lived in the past.

I'd say overall, working hard pays off if you have a strong impact on the business and own a good chunk of it. If you're working at BigTechCoFaang I'd slack absolutely as much as possible. Just riding the border between hired and fired.

Re: How to Work Hard

#355

Post by mjfl »

nineplay wrote: post #317

One of my greatest regrets is how much time I wasted on 'work' in my 20s and 30s. I was an engineer, I made a comfortable salary, but I rarely took a vacation, I never traveled outside the UI, I took days off reluctantly with a vague feeling that I was letting someone down. "Later", I told myself. When I'm successful, when I'm stable, when I have the money to travel in style and not backpack around and stay at hostel…

Traveling the world is a life goal for shallow people. It is a shallow experience.

Re: How to Work Hard

#356

Post by hughrr »

nineplay wrote: post #317

One of my greatest regrets is how much time I wasted on 'work' in my 20s and 30s. I was an engineer, I made a comfortable salary, but I rarely took a vacation, I never traveled outside the UI, I took days off reluctantly with a vague feeling that I was letting someone down. "Later", I told myself. When I'm successful, when I'm stable, when I have the money to travel in style and not backpack around and stay at hostel…

Completely agree. I've seen a lot of people not make it to retirement or get utterly ruined before they get there and then live on scraps.

I had a near miss on this front which turned me. I'm a lucky one.

Also never listen to an ideolog. I haven't met one that isn't wrong yet.

Re: How to Work Hard

#357

Post by austenallred »

nineplay wrote: post #317

One of my greatest regrets is how much time I wasted on 'work' in my 20s and 30s. I was an engineer, I made a comfortable salary, but I rarely took a vacation, I never traveled outside the UI, I took days off reluctantly with a vague feeling that I was letting someone down. "Later", I told myself. When I'm successful, when I'm stable, when I have the money to travel in style and not backpack around and stay at hostel…

> Don't listen to PG, kids. Live the life you want to have now, not the life you think you'll want to have several decades out.

It really depends on what you're working for. If your goal is retire in 50s that's pretty achievable without working terribly hard (for most engineers).

If your goal is to be as good at soccer as Lionel Messi probably not so much.

Define what your goals are really well, then you can figure out what level of work is required to get there, then decide if that's a sacrifice worth making to you or if you want to adjust your goals.

Of course, there's some unknown in there, but if you don't want to be incredibly rich and change the world it doesn't take the same inputs.

Re: How to Work Hard

#358

Post by warent »

CPLX wrote: post #263
warent wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive but this is something I've never understood. If life feels like this, that seems like an indicator that it's time for some massive change. Usually people give some vague abstract response about why massive change is just unrealistic, indicating some fragile house of cards, while in a simultaneous act of cognitive dissonance dreaming of the day it topples. Perhaps we coul…

> Perhaps we could: sell everything and move into a van to live on the road; or get a cheap house boat; or declare bankruptcy and move into a Buddhist monastery; quit jobs to transition into a more mindless one that allows more free time; find a nonprofit organization in a different country to throw oneself into; teach English in a foreign country; etc... Name one of those things you can do when you have family membe…

  To ignore that element just telegraphs a complete lack of understanding of the basic premise that underpins human existence.
It's true family is extremely important and clearly I personally do not have much in the way of familial ties (though not by choice). If I'm speaking from one extreme, it seems like you are speaking from the other extreme. The premise of one person's existence isn't the same as the basic premise of all human existence in general. We all have different experiences.

Re: How to Work Hard

#359

Post by DantesKite »

nineplay wrote: post #317

One of my greatest regrets is how much time I wasted on 'work' in my 20s and 30s. I was an engineer, I made a comfortable salary, but I rarely took a vacation, I never traveled outside the UI, I took days off reluctantly with a vague feeling that I was letting someone down. "Later", I told myself. When I'm successful, when I'm stable, when I have the money to travel in style and not backpack around and stay at hostel…

I understand what you mean by health problems, because I too have health problems that limit my ability to work and play the way I dreamed of.

But Paul Graham never recommends mindlessly working on things that don't interest you for the sake of some imagined tomorrow.

He even recommends not to do it:

"...if you think there's something admirable about working too hard, get that idea out of your head. You're not merely getting worse results, but getting them because you're showing off — if not to other people, then to yourself."

That's a strawman version of what Paul is suggesting.

" Are you really interested in x, or do you want to work on it because you'll make a lot of money, or because other people will be impressed with you, or because your parents want you to?"

"The best test of whether it's worthwhile to work on something is whether you find it interesting"

"Working hard is not just a dial you turn up to 11. It's a complicated, dynamic system that has to be tuned just right at each point. You have to understand the shape of real work, see clearly what kind you're best suited for, aim as close to the true core of it as you can, accurately judge at each moment both what you're capable of and how you're doing, and put in as many hours each day as you can without harming the quality of the result. This network is too complicated to trick. But if you're consistently honest and clear-sighted, it will automatically assume an optimal shape, and you'll be productive in a way few people are."

"It's good to go on vacation occasionally, but when I go on vacation, I like to learn new things. I wouldn't like just sitting on a beach."

Listen to PG kids. Not some misinterpretation of what he's saying.

But I hope you can find the peace you're searching for. I really do.

I understand the agony of not being able to get what you want.

Re: How to Work Hard

#360

Post by lovecg »

antiterra wrote: post #277
richardwhiuk wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just think that quote is a complete fabrication.

Are you saying you think the interview Time magazine had with Gates was a complete fabrication, or that the author just randomly made up that bit? http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,137132,... Or do you mean you think Gates actually took days off and the suggestion he didn’t is a fabrication?

He might have meant something like “never took a day off beyond the usual weekend/holiday”. Or “even on vacation, I did things like exercise and reading books, so it doesn’t count as taking a day off”. Who knows.
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