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It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

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351–360 of 379 posts

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Under the new rules, Fairfax will first identify all eighth-graders who meet certain academic criteria: those who achieve an unweighted GPA of at least 3.5 while taking Algebra I or a higher-level math class, in addition to math and science honors courses and either an English or social studies honors course." "In a bid to ensure geographical diversity, a certain number of seats will be allotted to every middle scho…

The existing system also isn't meritocratic. I attended TJ. I remember the test prep and the BS extracurriculars to pad resumes. I am not convinced that a student who has a 3.5 and has taken accelerated courses is unprepared to attend. Extracurriculars at TJ (at least many years ago) were also tremendously diverse. Sure, somebody who has only taken Algebra 1 in 8th grade is less likely to end up with the top scores i…

I am not, but I went to a public high school with a similar atmosphere as what I hear TJ is like. At least at my school, if you decided to do a lottery for students from across the city and set 3.5 as a threshold for lottery entrance, the competitiveness of my school in national competitions would have suffered severely. Anecdotally, the people I knew with 3.5-3.6 middle school GPAs were just uncompetitive when doing team tryouts and olympiads and also got lower grades in AP courses compared to straight A students. When college admissions came around they made it into much less prestigious and less competitive schools compared to the straight A students.

Anyone can play bridge or watch a rock concert. Not everyone can make the AIME and do math at a college sophomore level when they're a HS freshman. Schools like TJ and my high school should cater to the latter, not the former. The entire point of these schools is to _reward achivement above and beyond the norm_. Yeah, a student with a 3.5 can probably make it through TJ or any other competitive high school's courseload, but the point of these schools is that you put all the best of the best in the same place and network effects happen and push them to even higher levels of achievement _outside the classroom_. By admitting less competitive students (even if the application process isn't perfect) you prevent those levels of achievement from even happening at all.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#352
post #314
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if I'm the only kid who expressly did not do what their parents did in this thread. My father and my father's father were both anesthesiologists. I'm a software developer with a degree in mechanical engineering. Growing up, I saw a lot of my dad's frustration butting his head against hospital and regulatory bureaucracy and decided to steer clear. (His biggest headaches came because it's not uncommon for on…

>rather than risk a jury trial pitting "rich doctors" against a government program for low income folks, over ambiguous wording. Well, were they following the standard of American healthcare in price-gouging patients because it was technically legal to do so? Which would not necessarily be a strike against your dad, but simply an acknowledgement of the way health care costs are "managed" in this country.

> standard of American healthcare in price-gouging patients

They were charging MediCare, not patients, and they were charging MediCare according to the price schedule dictated by MediCare, which was significantly less than insurance companies paid. The problem was there were poorly worded rules for adjusting prices when one doctor was simultaneously treating multiple patients, particularly around how multiple discount factors should compound.

I don't remember the exact details from 30 years ago, but IIRC, it was something like under one interpretation of the rules, if a doctor were treating 2 private insurance patients and 1 MediCare patient simultaneously, then the MediCare discount factor was reasonable. However, if a doctor were treating 3 MediCare patients simultaneously, under one interpretation the discount factors compounded additively such that the doctor's fees went negative and the doctor was best off doing the 3rd case pro-bono. The real trouble came when a doctor was treating 1 patient with private insurance and 2 under MediCare, where the incorrect reading resulted in discount factors unreasonable compounding, but not to such a degree that it was so clearly an incorrect interpretation.

When MediCare didn't respond to their request for clarification, my dad's company went with the interpretation that gave sane results for 3 MediCare patients, and applied that same interpretation to the 2 MadiCare patient case. It would have been immoral and illegal for them to refuse to treat the patients, so they went forward in good faith with the most sensible interpretation. This despite (as discovery showed) MediCare officials acting in bad faith by intentionally not responding to their inquiry and privately joking about it. They presumably realized the correct interpretation resulted in higher fees, but avoided responding in hopes the lower fees would be charged.

Whichever bureaucrats had written the original billing rules were clearly aware that some doctors simultaneously treated multiple patients, but had clearly hadn't sat down and tried calculating a bill for one hypothetical situation for each of the possible corner cases.

The rules were later amended to be unambiguous. The lawsuit was filed a few years after the rules amendments, and all of the allegations of wrongdoing were for billing prior to the rules amendments. Everything they did was always clearly correct under the later rules. The only question was if the earlier and later rules were equivalent. My dad's company's assertion was that the earlier ambiguous rules should be interpreted as being equivalent to the later rules. The opposition's assertion was that the rules change wasn't in fact a clarification, but instead a meaningful change that allowed doctors to bill more.

The billing rules were so complex that in the late 1970s, my dad's company of 15-ish doctors hired some developers to spend months sitting down with the doctors coding up the billing rules. Even the mid 2000's they were making more on licensing the anesthesia billing software than they were on providing anesthesia services.

Don't go into medicine unless you really like helping people.

My dad studied hard enough to get very high MCAT scores and went to med school after 3 years of undergrad, so he never got an undergrad degree. (Med school was less competitive in the 1970s, and he didn't go to a top-tier med school, though he did well enough that he did his residency at the Mayo Clinic.) I'm pretty sure there were plenty of other things my dad could have done that would have been roughly as lucrative, but lower stress and left him with more time with family. I think part of it was that he felt a duty to carry on his father's career that was cut so short.

I saw my dad's paycheck one month in the mid 1980s. He made 10k/month, which was good money for the 80s (about 300k/yr in 2021 dollars), but he also had to pay malpractice insurance and med school loans out of that (Grandpa drowned when dad was 9 years old and Grandma had to go back to being a school teacher). He and many of his colleagues had stress-related acid reflux. Hospitals need anesthesia 24/7, so he was on a rolling shift work schedule. Sometimes I wouldn't see him for a week because he'd either have the evening shift and be out before I got home from school, or he'd be working the graveyard shift and wouldn't wake up until after my bedtime. Anesthesiologists have pretty high rates of suicide and drug abuse. You occasionally pull some genuine miracles out of your hat and save a doomed person, but you also carry with you forever the names of those you couldn't save.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#353
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the NYT: Working sons of working fathers are, on average, 2.7 times as likely as the rest of the population to have the same job but only two times as likely to have the same job as their working mothers, according to an analysis by The New York Times, one of the first to look at mothers and daughters in addition to fathers and sons. Daughters are 1.8 times as likely to have the same job as their mothers and 1.7…

Thats Indian Varna system right there.

"Untouchables plight is worse than that of slaves, because they have been taught to consent not only to a physical but to a psychic servitude and prostration" --Sir Winston Churchill (b. 1874) https://archive.is/XlOXf

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#354
post #250
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the NYT: Working sons of working fathers are, on average, 2.7 times as likely as the rest of the population to have the same job but only two times as likely to have the same job as their working mothers, according to an analysis by The New York Times, one of the first to look at mothers and daughters in addition to fathers and sons. Daughters are 1.8 times as likely to have the same job as their mothers and 1.7…

For me, the progression has been: software engineer, software engineer, railroad engineer, railroad engineer, farmer. I will be very interested to see what my son picks and I very much plan to allow him to pursue his own interests.

It is a little off subject, but I agree. I am watching my kid develop with great interest and while I do have preferences, I recognize she will need to play to her strengths.

Unless she turns out to be an idiot, in which case I may need to force a path.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#355
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heritability is not necessarily genetic, which is probably what he was getting at. Behavioral genetics is fairly controversial for being an entire field which begs the question. https://www.wichita.edu/academics/fairmount_college_of_liber... https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/my-problem-...

Twin studies, adoption studies, and now GWAS studies are quickly putting an end to the idea of some significant but elusive environmental effect that accounts for heritability measures in exclusion to genes. Regarding the articles, I don't find them compelling. The author of the first one identifies himself as an emergentist, which is conceptually vacuous. The critique in the second article doesn't target the stronge…

All behavioral genetic studies heretofore rely on statistical analysis to draw correlations from datasets. Even ones that identiy specific SNPs are often unable to identify the physiological mechanism by which, say, Gene X influences intelligence. Without that, it's impossible to conclude that expression of Gene X isn't environmentally-influenced, and only has positive effects on intelligence when a certain diet is consumed, or sleep schedule kept, or common childhood illness avoided, for example. Another trait influenced by complex genetic and environmental factors, variability in adult height, has similarly been held to be highly heritable based on flawed studies with flawed construction, methodology, and assumptions, despite the fact that the average in many countries has changed on a time scale incompatible with a purely or even highly genetic basis. And height is easy to measure: get a ruler. Models of intelligence have shifted over the years because, speaking frankly, we don't really know how to measure it objectively.

Your objection to the first is ad hominem, to the second erroneous.

Belief in genetic determinism, as we conceive it, is at odds with the principles of skepticism and scientific inquiry. Like eugenics before it, it really, really wants to find a scientific basis to justify the state of the world we live in even as that state shifts under us. There are massive holes in both the execution of studies and the underlying rationale, and it's impossible to speak in good faith on the topic without acknowledging that.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#356
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I count myself as a liberal but also a wonky liberal. The fact the progressive agitators don't have sound evidence for the validity of their ideas beyond number of retweets bugs the hell out of me. Student loan forgiveness would most likely be a net positive it's just going to be quite expensive for relatively little reward. Incremental wins on health care and progressive taxation will be much simpler and more benefi…

You're a "wonky liberal", but it's the lack of sound evidence for progressive ideas that bothers you? Issues like climate change? Mass incarceration? Racism? Universal health care? Vaccinating people and wearing masks (not a position limited to progressives)? There's not another part of the political spectrum that lacks sound evidence? That's a bit mind-boggling, but not the first time I've seen it. My hypothesis: Mi…

No, no not at all. I'm only talking about student loan debt. I'm 100% on board with everything else.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#357
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twin studies, adoption studies, and now GWAS studies are quickly putting an end to the idea of some significant but elusive environmental effect that accounts for heritability measures in exclusion to genes. Regarding the articles, I don't find them compelling. The author of the first one identifies himself as an emergentist, which is conceptually vacuous. The critique in the second article doesn't target the stronge…

All behavioral genetic studies heretofore rely on statistical analysis to draw correlations from datasets. Even ones that identiy specific SNPs are often unable to identify the physiological mechanism by which, say, Gene X influences intelligence. Without that, it's impossible to conclude that expression of Gene X isn't environmentally-influenced, and only has positive effects on intelligence when a certain diet is c…

>Without that, it's impossible to conclude that expression of Gene X isn't environmentally-influenced

Conclusions do not require certainty. Science is about converging to the best explanation, not about unimpeachable conclusions. But when there are no plausible causal paths to explain measured correlations aside from, e.g., gene->phenotype causation, then causation along the available causal path is a valid tentative conclusion.

> variability in adult height, has similarly been held to be highly heritable... despite the fact that the average in many countries has changed on a time scale incompatible with a purely or even highly genetic basis.

I don't know how you can possibly think this supports your argument against genetic heritability. Height has a heritability measure of around 80%, which leaves 20% for environmental factors. There is no contradiction in noting that average height has increased over time when the current best analysis leaves significant room for variation due to environment.

>despite the fact that the average in many countries has changed on a time scale incompatible with a purely or even highly genetic basis.

Nothing you've said demonstrates this claim.

>Your objection to the first is ad hominem

Nope. Emergentism is his avowed conceptual framework, a lens through which he analyzes evidence and draws conclusions. But if the conceptual framework is vacuous, which it is, then that undermines the value of conclusions based on that framework.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#358
post #352
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>rather than risk a jury trial pitting "rich doctors" against a government program for low income folks, over ambiguous wording. Well, were they following the standard of American healthcare in price-gouging patients because it was technically legal to do so? Which would not necessarily be a strike against your dad, but simply an acknowledgement of the way health care costs are "managed" in this country.

> standard of American healthcare in price-gouging patients They were charging MediCare, not patients, and they were charging MediCare according to the price schedule dictated by MediCare, which was significantly less than insurance companies paid. The problem was there were poorly worded rules for adjusting prices when one doctor was simultaneously treating multiple patients, particularly around how multiple discoun…

Thank you for speaking frankly about your dad's situation. It doesn't confirm what I thought, but speaks to the spirit of it in that the presence of private insurance unnecesarily complicated what should have been a simple fee-for-service. Likewise, I'm sorry to hear that your father and other anaesthesiologists, as well as many other American workers across many fields, fell and fall victim to a systemic deficiency in labor management practices. I worked a night shift warehouse job for barely half a year before I couldn't stand the negative effects it was having on my health; I can't imagine doing it for years on end. Your father was paid well, but I imagine that it barely covered the costs of the negative health outcomes he experienced from prolonged and chronic sleep deprivation, as well as limited contact with his family. So many of our businesses are in need of process advancements that would allow for larger workforces working shorter hours, so that we're not putting so much on each individual worker. And as far as healthcare goes, we really, really just need to go to a single-payer system. I'm afraid that our unwillingness to make the decision to make those shifts means that we'll see more situations like this in the future.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existing system also isn't meritocratic. I attended TJ. I remember the test prep and the BS extracurriculars to pad resumes. I am not convinced that a student who has a 3.5 and has taken accelerated courses is unprepared to attend. Extracurriculars at TJ (at least many years ago) were also tremendously diverse. Sure, somebody who has only taken Algebra 1 in 8th grade is less likely to end up with the top scores i…

I am not, but I went to a public high school with a similar atmosphere as what I hear TJ is like. At least at my school, if you decided to do a lottery for students from across the city and set 3.5 as a threshold for lottery entrance, the competitiveness of my school in national competitions would have suffered severely. Anecdotally, the people I knew with 3.5-3.6 middle school GPAs were just uncompetitive when doing…

All I can do is share my experience. I do find it weird how many people who have never interacted with TJ have developed incredibly strong opinions about it (so much so that several of my friends regularly receive hate mail from strangers who don't live in virginia).

> the point of these schools is that you put all the best of the best in the same place and network effects happen and push them to even higher levels of achievement _outside the classroom_.

This is the difference between you and me. I don't believe that the existing system admits the most meritorious students. Tons of people insist that I hate education and that I want to sabotage the most qualified students. But I don't believe that the test, with its entire cottage industry of prep (my parents were told that they should prepare for TJ when I was five), actually admits a more capable group of students than alternatives.

The reason I believe this is that I've seen this happen in earlier education. I went to an accelerated program starting in 3rd grade. It was wildly inequitable. After noticing that there were some schools that literally never sent a student to the accelerated system, my parents looked into it and discovered that the process was clearly not evaluating merit but instead admitting people who understood how to navigate the application structure. Relatively small changes in the process rapidly made things much more balanced geographically and the changes have stuck. Students who enrolled in the accelerated program from the previously absent schools did not fail.

I also think that the culture of prep damages people. A ton of my friends who are TJ alumni now share stories (well over a decade later) of how TJ was the most toxic learning ecosystem they have ever been in. These are people who are now faculty members at top universities, founders of successful startups, and more. The bulk of my friends from high school believe that they should have focused less on competitive schooling and spent more time on other things. Replacing bridge and drama with math competitions causes more harm, in my opinion.

TJ is also not the only place to get an accelerated education in northern virginia. If a student wants to partial differential equations in high school, most high schools in the area have attachments with George Mason, which enables access to these curricula. In fact, TJ does not offer those courses to high school freshmen, so the students at TJ that want to do what you say are stuck going to Mason anyway.

I also think that there are some extremely qualified students who'd be much better served by the IB programs offered at nearby schools. AP is just truly awful, in my opinion. You take smart kids and crush them into rigid curricula rather than letting them explore. All of us got deficient humanities educations at TJ.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having gone there, the degree is not the magic wand you seem to think it is.

In what way is it not? I think that most people will automatically give someone who went to Harvard the benefit of the doubt.

The entire business model of the management consulting industry.
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