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Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

reuters.com

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Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#351

Post by JamisonM »

ppf wrote: post #326
sudosysgen wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deciding to get infected is not "to each their own". You will statistically get someone else sick and they might fare much worse than you. Be aware that you are not only deciding for yourself, but for others as well.

If so, they also have the choice to get vaccinated themselves. Also, I have yet to see any concrete data on how much the various vaccines reduce transmission. It would seem to me tehre isn't much difference between a person not displaying symptoms of Covid, and a vaccinated person.

If you haven't seen any data of reduced transmission it is because you are intentionally avoiding it.

Look ay the case numbers in the nations that are vaccinating at a high rate, if you don't know how to draw appropriate conclusions from that data then obviously you are not interested in forming an honest opinion.

The evidence is just sitting out there, everywhere, you don't even need a proper study.. although there are also many of those!

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#352

Post by thehappypm »

Fomite wrote: post #170
dependsontheq wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching the various vaccines fail in production or in clinical trials gives an interesting perspective on what an amazing and lucky combination BioNTech/Pfizer are. So I think we should be grateful for both companies, amazing scientists and amazing engineers.

The speed and effectiveness are astounding. I was braced this fall for "It's probably worthwhile for high risk individuals" effectiveness metrics in the 50%'s.

mRNA is a huge technological leap, Kati Kariko deserves a Nobel Prize.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#353

Post by thehappypm »

xyst wrote: post #349

mRNA vaccines are likely the future of vaccinations, but I continued with the older and battle tested vaccination route (whichever provider was offering the 1 dose vaccine). I know these are cases are very rare, but I would like to do my part in minimizing any potential risks.

Are you referring to J&J? Did you know that there has only been 1 vaccine using the adenovirus platform approved, for Ebola? It's just as experimental.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#354

Post by ev0lv »

chronolitus wrote: post #153

I definitely had this: got the first shot and felt confident, cocksure that I would have no symptoms at all being healthy and young. Woke up during the night ~8 hours after the first shot feeling a little out of breath, with strong and almost painful heartbeats. I chalked it up to being stressed, but found it strange as I had zero reasons to be stressed that particular week. I connected the dots the next day when I s…

>>I'd expect it to manifest many years later

You're spot on. Long term risks take many years to evaluate.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#355

Post by cloverich »

mike_hearn wrote: post #350
tim333 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of quibbles >The spike protein is, let's be clear about this, a toxin. If you were injected with sufficient amounts of mRNA vaccine for long enough you would die By that definition everything in the world is a toxin - inject enough and it'll kill you. In practice the spike protein doesn't. I mean I had the pfizer three weeks back - it makes your arm sore and stiff and probably has similar effects elsewhere i…

I suppose that's technically true, but what I mean is that injecting e.g. water would not cause cell death. Yes if you attach yourself to a IV water pump then you can kill yourself by totally de-balancing your body chemistry, but water is not itself a toxin. It doesn't cause cell death or attack the body in any way. By the way, the fact that the body can flush it out doesn't mean it's not a toxin. Alcohol is gone fro…

Toxin has a real meaning and its not the meaning you are using. mRNA as such isn't toxic, its how your cellular machinery functions. Its removed from your body because that's the mechanism your body uses to produce the effect size it wants and not more, as mRNA production is used as a communication mechanism by your cells. A real toxin disrupts your normal cellular fucntion and / or causes direct damage in some way.

> It's very unclear to me, as a layman, how this artificial "self amplifying RNA" that incorporates elements from a virus is so very different from an actual virus, given that the SARS-CoV-2 is itself basically RNA surrounded by a coating in a form that can self-replicate.

For one, we can implement protocols to ensure the mrna we are generating contains the instructions we want, at the effect size we want. We could go the non mrna route and grow it as a virus, but that is going to be less accurate, more costly, and take longer. We could also just let people develop natural immunity, which will also work. People will get varying effect sizes, and vary from barely immune to dead. Obviously no vaccine and no virus would be the best outcome. But we don't get that choice.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#356

Post by cloverich »

mike_hearn wrote: post #328
ancientorange wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk with covid than take these vaccines. As an exhausted 34 year old who spent the last year field-monitoring vaccine trials, I would love to see the sources that informed your position.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

> I'll put my faith in Mother Nature instead.

This isn't so much for you, but for anyone that doesn't know how to respond to this. This is how mother nature works: Human population gets genetic variability in their immune response. New virus hits the scene. Some people's immune system, with its (stability | random changes) offers them better protections. The others die. Those that die do not reproduce (dep. on age). Children of survivors have "better" immune system. Rinse and repeat. So generally speaking, going with mother nature means: People who don't have the right genes for this virus should die.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#357

Post by cloverich »

jb775 wrote: post #307
pfg wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 0.002% risk of experiencing myocarditis due to the vaccine seems a better deal than catching COVID, which brings a ~0.3% risk of experiencing (symptomatic) myocarditis in a (to my non-expert understanding) similar demographic[1]. Many experts assume COVID will become endemic, so this is not a theoretical risk. [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...

You aren't factoring in the likely substantial underreporting of this, the fact that this could be a symptomless issue until it isn't (i.e. young athletes suddenly having fatal heart failure), the fact that many people just got the vaccine, the possibility that the onset of this takes longer than they think, the low chance of catching covid in the first place, or the fact that the vaccine doesn't even guarantee prote…

Its an acute issue that is rare. In this case, its rarer than the normal rate from getting COVID isn't it? The chance of catching COVID is high, not low, without the vaccine. The vaccine does not guarantee protection in the sense that no vaccine does, but thus far it appears to work at least as well or better than any other vaccine. For the health issues, most of your same concerns apply to COVID which by definition carries at _least_ as much risk as the vaccine given its modus operandi. For the symptom in question the risk appears to be lower -- by a LOT -- than if people were to get the virus naturally. Its only being reported at all because the monitoring is good -- did you look at how few cases and the deviation they detected? Its on the order of normal: 100, now: 200, amongs _millions_ of vaccine doses. And presumably that's _after_ they rule out COVID. Per your "not guaranteed protection" line of reasoning, these cases might not even be from the vaccine in the first place, but from people who got COVID right around the same time. I can understand apprehension about new medicine.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#358

Post by xyst »

thehappypm wrote: post #353
xyst wrote: post #349

mRNA vaccines are likely the future of vaccinations, but I continued with the older and battle tested vaccination route (whichever provider was offering the 1 dose vaccine). I know these are cases are very rare, but I would like to do my part in minimizing any potential risks.

Are you referring to J&J? Did you know that there has only been 1 vaccine using the adenovirus platform approved, for Ebola? It's just as experimental.

From what I know, adenovirus based vaccines have been studied for many decades. Also I see there have been vaccines deployed for use in military personnel in the past.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#359

Post by [deleted] »

shmel wrote: post #334
throwaway5752 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't quite true. Since sars-covid-2 is new, it follows of course the specific vaccine is new. The RNA/mRNA approach goes back 30 years to HIV research, and the current vaccine has many years of research (directly from SARS-1 and MERS, and possible mitigations). A lot is known about them, regardless of widespread use. We will all undoubtedly learn more. I'm not replying directly to you, but the duration of the i…

Could you please name any other mRNA vaccine that was authorized for use in humans by FDA? I am not aware of any. I agree that the vaccine is probably safer. However, propaganda that covid19 infection doesn't give you as good immune memory as the vaccine is outright false and should be considered as vaccine misinformation on major platforms.

[deleted]

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#360

Post by weaksauce »

trhway wrote: post #292
weaksauce wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And as a healthy 49 years old, i'm taking my chance with covid and have no plans for vaccination so you would rather be at between a 1 in 500 and a 1 in 250 risk of dying in your age group + a much higher risk than that of some long covid symptoms that are debilitating/unknown if they will ever get better vs. a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance you get something that might be bad but is likely survivable... I don't understan…

>between a 1 in 500 and a 1 in 250 risk of dying in your age group your post is an example of the "logic" that is abundant and has highjacked the info space especially when it comes to covid. The numbers you use are aggregated across the whole age group and not adjusted for health status/risks. There are orders of magnitude difference of risk between different people with different health conditions even in the same…

There have been plenty of perfectly healthy people with low risk factors in that age bracket that have died from covid.
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