Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#351

Post by andrei_says_ » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #280

maybelsyrup wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Good! I've been hearing about "the business side of the problem" my entire life -- lectured sternly about it, in many cases. All while few of the Adults and Experts - people with Real Power, in other words - dare even mention some of the topics laid out in the link. > I'm just saying that both sides of the equation need to be examined, i.e…

'suffering' for a business is just code for being on a path towards the workers suffering the consequences of no profit. That might mean not paying shareholders dividends and the company's share price losing value, but not all companies are public or pay dividends. If the money runs out, suddenly the business can't pay rent or pay the workers and thus goes bankrupt. No, the business's feelings aren't being hurt and i…

The thing is, “the business” tends to always treat the employees as if money is running out. To the limit permitted by law.

This limit needs be adjusted, that’s all.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#352

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #342

lotsofpulp wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurant owners aren’t leaving money on the table because they’re charitable people. There’s so many restaurant openings and closings for so many decades that I think it’s a pretty good indicator of their price dynamics. Software is B2B many times and has efficiencies of scale that restaurants don’t.

> There’s so many restaurant openings and closings for so many decades that I think it’s a pretty good indicator of their price dynamics. There have been many startups that have opened and gone bust in the past 15 years. I don’t think I would say that startups have terrible profit margins. In the context of tech startups the understood answer is that their product sucked. I think the same is true for most restaurants…

Tech startups are not very comparable to restaurants. Restaurants have limited capacity, limited ability to scale, usually pay rent (so any success can be partially sucked up by the landlord), and have limited times of the day and week to earn most of their money.

To support terrible profit margins (relative to the risk), I also would look at the financial status of restaurant owners/operators, who by and large, aren't in the higher end of the income scale. Almost no one tells their kid to grow up and aspire to be a cook or open their own restaurant (unless they already have a a trust fund).

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#353

Post by robocat » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

simfree wrote: post #286

j1elo wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vehicle insurance on an old vehicle: $300/mo Wow. In Spain you would pay between €150 to 200 per year of insurance for the typical old cheap car. 400/year for a nice, semi luxury one. I knew some things were expensive in the States, but this particular one surprised me a lot.

Depending on the car and where you live insurance can be lower or higher. Outside of collector/classic car insurance policies (eg: this is not a daily driver car and you agree not to exceed a low number of miles yearly) or parked insurance (a few hundred miles a year), there is not $200 to $300 a year car insurance in the USA. Tribal reservations don't require license plates or insurance usually, and you cab choose t…

> and you ca[n] choose to self insure if you have sufficient cash set aside.

I think you are ignoring the third party risks - damaging an expensive car or hurting someone. In that situation, you use insurance if you want to protect your money. If you have no money, insurance make little sense, and you just suck up the risks of pranging your beater.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#354

Post by dstaley » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #338

rbg246 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

Two things:

1. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, about half of people making minimum wage or less are older than 25 years old.

2. A single person working a full-time job (32 hours) at minimum wage makes $12,064. The US federal definition of poverty for this individual would be anything below $12,880. So yes, minimum wage workers are literally, by definition, working for poverty wages.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#355

Post by matkoniecz » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:15 PM UTC

rufus_foreman wrote: post #328

Sebb767 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. She actually addressees this in the very last paragraph: > if a business can’t pay a living wage, should it be a business?

If a business can't pay a living wage, the workers will die off and the problem will be solved.

For start, people are allowed to work also in other places.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#356

Post by bp0017 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:15 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #338

rbg246 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

Be careful with this argument, it's a talking point that over-represents the amount of these jobs held by teenagers earning pocket money. Quite a lot of minimum wage jobs are held by single parents or people just trying to stay afloat.

By the way, even if it is just teenagers, I don't think that should somehow disqualify them from earning fair wages. They aren't being "provided" jobs, they work to produce value for a company, and and should be compensated fairly regardless of their financial situation.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#357

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:16 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #238

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

I'm glad I don't have to fit my expenses into a minimum wage budget, but some of your numbers are pretty high. I buy gas once every 2 or 3 weeks and spend $45 on a phone plan with 4 GB of LTE (US; I guess that can fit the definition of basically no internet). My car insurance (with collision and unlimited medical) is less than $500 for 6 months. I would probably balk at paying much more than $800 in rent. The rental…

[deleted]

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#358

Post by jonnycomputer » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:16 PM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

Well you're describing a situation where there needs to be general rise in the cost of labor. Its competition against competitors that don't raise wages that is the problem, right?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#359

Post by gilbetron » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #254

nitwit005 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With such a small profit margin, arbitrarily raising everyone's wages is likely going to kill the business. There have been past minimum wage hikes, and that's not what has happened. The costs get passed onto consumers. Of course, there's presumably some hypothetical minimum wage that would be too high and destroy the industry, but the amounts being discussed in the US are below what other countries have already tr…

Your second sentence is debatable, as it appears that many European countries have high enough minimum total compensations (including benefits and other indirect costs) that unemployment is relatively high, and it can be very tough to get on the economic ladder.

Which countries are suffering from this?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#360

Post by rufus_foreman » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

matkoniecz wrote: post #355

rufus_foreman wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a business can't pay a living wage, the workers will die off and the problem will be solved.

For start, people are allowed to work also in other places.

If they have a better option than their current one, why don't they take it?

Their second best option would typically pay less, meaning the workers would die off even faster.